Weights

[wheelrite]

I am entirely convinced that any stampers were for demonstrating useful work, as is hauling rocks or pumping water. Thats all.
Regards
jon

[rlortie]

OK! Why did I bring this subject up?

I would rather try to read something into a wheel depiction than his portrait. Zoom in (200%) on the first of two Merseburg drawings.

look closely at the so called "Sound box" and you will see what appears to be rectangular holes slightly larger than the hammers. I see the hammers dropping inside the box. Also one can easily imagine a metal plate attached to the bottom of the exposed end.

Also note that the two right hammers are being lifted, but yet there is a second (higher) set of mortise pockets shown. IMO, and a stretch of the imagination it is possible that one mortise is for lifting and the other for pushing down!

We never see the back side of the wheel yet the sound box is sitting right up against the face. There was an eye witness report of seeing inside through a slit. A slit in the back side could have allowed a lever type mechanism to protrude from the sound box and into the wheel. Such a device would be timed so it was retracted when a spoke came by.

I know I am going way out on a limb here, but it does make possible for a bi-directional wheel to activate the stampers in either direction. This thought puts me right back wondering if the stampers were not part of the drive system.

Knowing the size of the wheel one can estimate these timbers to be anywhere from a 4X4 to a 6X6 at least 7 feet long. Whether hard wood or soft, definitely something that one is not going to pick up in one hand and walk off with. Either falling or pushed down they would create quite a force!

Disclosure: This is just my thoughts and why I cannot sleep at night!

Ralph

[DrWhat]

If I were to show off the power of my wheel, I too would perhaps make it noisy where the stampers impact. A sound box would be a great idea. This would have a brilliant effect of mesmerising the audience.

"What a wheel, what power..." etc

I think the darker mark under the raised stamper is just a shadow drawn in.

It also makes sense to put the stampers close to the wheel. Where else would you put them? But...who really knows.

[John Collins]

You're very thorough Stewart and I must admit, having last read those pieces of text you quote, so long ago that I had forgotten much of what was in them, I can see that you are right - the stampers must have been present for the eyewitnesses to describe them so often. I stand corrected.

My current work has an entirely different emphasis, and I can see that I must check my facts before passing comment on text that I have not returned to in the recent past. Sorry for misleading you Ralph.

I still think that the stampers are a red-herring as far as solving the problem of how to replicate Bessler's wheel goes. I think that the wheel would work with or with out them, and I get the feeling when reading Apologia, that when Bessler comments on the noise coming from the wheel, he could easily say it came from the stampers. But he doesn't, and that suggests that either he was disregarding their presence (or they weren't present), or it was obvious it came from the wheel. He might of course been using mis-direction and pretending it came from the wheel, when it actually originated from the stampers!

JC

[wheelrite]

I am entirely convinced that any stampers were for demonstrating useful work, as is hauling rocks or pumping water. Thats all.
Regards
jon

[Stewart]

look closely at the so called "Sound box" and you will see what appears to be rectangular holes slightly larger than the hammers. I see the hammers dropping inside the box.

I agree with Ralf that the stampers go into the box, at least in the case of the Merseburg wheel.

The stampers were a common piece of equipment used in many industries in Bessler's time, such as mining and milling, and therefore a perfect thing to use to demonstrate that his wheel could do useful work. I've see many examples of these in engravings in old machine treatises from around Bessler's time; some show the stampers entering a box, and others are left open and just stamp directly onto a flat surface or the ground. See the first attached image for an example use in a mill.

If you look closely at the box in the Merseburg wheel copperplate engraving from GB (not the DT woodcut version), you can see a window in the front of the box and some squiggly lines inside, which I think are to depict rocks inside being crushed (see attached image). When I made my 3D model of the Merseburg wheel I modeled the box that way, i.e. hollow; see the attached image - I've let the stampers fall down to the bottom. In the second 3d image I've put some rocks in to illustrate what I mean.

In the Kassel wheel image there are only two stampers, and it's not as clear as to whether they enter the box or not. It's possible they just impact on the top of the box. I think he reduced the number of stampers in the Kassel wheel so that he could power both the water screw and the stampers at once. He didn't need the stampers to be as impressive a demonstration in the Kassel wheel, as he had the screw as well, whereas with the Merseburg wheel the stampers were the only demonstration (other than the simple crate hoist of course) and so needed to be impressive and perhaps actually crush rocks.

Ralph, I don't fully understand your theory about a protrusion from the box into the wheel, however it can't possibly be the case for the Kassel wheel as the box was set back from the wheel against the wall and it does not overlap the wheel in any axis. I also think that the Gera wheel worked without stampers present; I've found no mention of stampers with that wheel (although I have to admit I've seen very little mentioned about that wheel at all), and I don't think it had enough power to operate stamps as it could barely lift 1lb of weight. Also the wheels were reported to run unloaded, and I'm sure the thorough examinations would have spotted anything shooting in and out of the box and into the wheel.

Knowing the size of the wheel one can estimate these timbers to be anywhere from a 4X4 to a 6X6 at least 7 feet long.

Good estimate Ralf! Bessler reports the Kassel wheel stampers as being 5"x5" and 7ft long.

Stewart

[DrWhat]

You guys are certainly thorough, however you need to look at the top of the stampers in the drawings to determine how much they will displace with each wheel rotation. By the small displacement depicted at the top of the stampers, it is clear that the stampers barely entered the box. To do any useful work the stampers need much more displacement.

So the stampers were for dramatic effect rather than to do useful work.

Now the issue emerges of the accuracy of the depictions. Did the stampers infact have much more movement than depicted in his real demonstrations? If so, and if they have been drawn incorrectly, then we can assume that other parts of the wheels were drawn incorrectly?

However due to consistencies between stampers on different wheels, I stand by my opinion that they were for show, had little displacement, and were designed to be noisy.

PS I do agree though that they entered the box by a very small amount

[Stewart]

By the small displacement depicted at the top of the stampers, it is clear that the stampers barely entered the box. To do any useful work the stampers need much more displacement.

You can't judge the displacement from the current positions depicted in the engraving. In my opinion the two right most stampers have been artificially raised up to show them clearly, and would never fully leave the box when in normal operation. The left two stampers are currently being lifted by the wheel and are almost ready to drop (remember there are two cams per stamper - each stamper was lifted twice per revolution). The displacement would be enough to actually do something with - if not enough to break rocks, then definitely pummeling corn. There is no mention of Bessler actually doing either of those with his stampers, and he didn't really need to as the fact that it had the power to actually lift the massive stampers is all anyone really needed to know (and that's what I mean by "doing useful work"), as the uses for stampers were widely known.

So, in answer to your questions: 1) yes, the stampers had more displacement than I think you realise, but you should be able imagine it if you think of the range the pegs protruding from the axle have between collecting the stamper's peg at the bottom and releasing it at the top; 2) no , they are not drawn incorrectly, and neither are any other parts of the wheel (subject to your understanding of the general flaws and mix of perspectives I've mentioned elsewhere) - although, of course I've not seen the real thing to comment on how it compares exactly, I just mean that everything makes sense to me as depicted and can be reconstructed.

There's no doubt their effect would have been dramatic and noisy though, I agree with you there, although they are just inherently noisy and not necessarily designed as such. Are you suggesting he was using the noise as a distraction from the noise the wheel itself was making? I can't see the need to do that as the wheel wasn't always run with the stampers attached.

Anyway, it seems we both agree that they are just a demonstration and not something that makes the wheel work or will help us figure out what does.

Stewart

[DrWhat]

Thanks Stewart.

We must be careful when interpreting the images. For example in the image below

http://www.besslerwheel.com/images/Kassel-2ndFigure.jpg

I actually built a pendulum structure with the precise (relative) dimensions shown. I was surprised to find that the 'triangular' pendulum is NOT symmetrical, in fact it is skewed. Now I am not sure if the image I am using is skewed from being copied (which I doubt), but I believe that either it was skewed for a reason, or there was some play in the triangular structure of the pendulum (which I also doubt), or errors were made in the progression of the depiction, and were too hard to change so the error remained.

I am not giving any solutions here, but just highlighting some points we need to be aware of.[/img]

[Jon J Hutton]

As shown the stampers are the type that were used in gold mining up till the early 1800's. They would crush gold ore laden rock. The sediments would flow over a mercury table where several men would pick out the nuggets/gold that would stick to the table. I think ole Bessler was trying to make a sell to the mining industry which were one of the few industries that had that kind of cash he was asking.

JJH

[wheelmaster]

Thank you DrWhat for bringing up the subject of the pendulum. IMO the pendulum served two purposes.

1- Timing for the wheel. As we all know the pendulum is a perfect choice for this task.
2- The handle of the pendulum rotates around what looks to be a 4 inch circle on the wheel. Moving weights around the inside of a wheel causes back force. I believe it served as a back force minimizer.

Any action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The pendulum was used to absorb the reaction of moving weight. If you where to grab the handle of the pendulum while in motion you would have a difficult time stopping it let along changing its dirrection.

The stampers may have been used to store energy. If every wheel was built with stampers I would say yes.

[Stewart]

I forgot to talk about the Kassel stampers in my last post. I think they differ from the Merseburg set, in that they don't enter the box and instead impact on the top. See the attached image from the DT woodcut. The box is much smaller and there is no sign of any holes in the top of it. Also notice that there is a lower guide for the stampers, something not needed in the Merseburg stampers as the top of the box serves that purpose. The Kassel stampers also wouldn't need the lower guide if they entered the box. Also, the nearest stamper appears to be resting on the top of the box, with the peg in the axle just about to lift it. If the stamper went any lower (i.e. into the box) the peg in the axle would not be able to lift the stamper as it could not reach the lifting-batten. Have a look at my animation of the Kassel wheel on johannbessler.com to see the stampers working.

So, in summary: the Merseburg stampers are inside the box, but the Kassel stampers impact on the top of the box.

DrWhat, I'd be careful when taking measurements directly off of the DT woodcut images. To start with, the woodcuts images are much less accurate than the copperplate engraving in GB. Also there's often unevenness in the paper which can cause winkles or lumps and dips. Then you have to take into consideration whether the image has been scanned completely flat. If this isn't done then the the image can end up warped and distorted. This is particularly a problem when the pages are bound in a book - the curvature of the pages into the spine can distort images (a good example are the images in the scans of MT).

However, having said that there are certain scenarios where you might want an uneven pendulum that is biased to swing more on one side than the other.

Jon, I agree. The Kassel setup was particularly geared up to demonstrate its usefulness to the mining industry, and this is mentioned by both Carl and Bessler. The bucket/crate hoist could be used to raise the rocks from the mine, the stampers could break up the rocks, and the water-screw could pump the flood water from the mines.

However, the stampers had many other uses, and when Bessler talks about the stampers in DT he gives the following examples of where they are used: oil mills, fulling mills, and paper mills. Oil mills ground grain into oil. Fulling is the process of cleansing, shrinking, and thickening cloth by moisture, heat, and pressure. A fulling mill uses stampers, which alternately fall into and rise from troughs where the cloth is placed with hot water and fuller's earth, or other cleansing materials.

Stewart

EDIT: I've just noticed that you can't see the box in the animation on the website as it is behind Bessler's arm. Here's a link to a line-drawn animation of it that I previously posted on the forum: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_id

[jupter]

(quote from JON:)
I think we are missing something of importance with the weights. Bessler goes on about form (balls) a lot ....

patrick's toy has an interesting look to what your asking.i like this toy. if it where the center of the wheel like the axil and the 3 cylinders where hollowed out and filled with balls in some arangment to roll and swing to the axiles hard enough to keep the wheel turning .to me the center of the wheel is the pm "the torque governor wheel rotates on a bearing composed of many free flowing six lobed or snowflake-shaped structures within each of the six overall snowflake-like arranged rollers about the center orrfyrean axil.now if the axil itself had this in it and six more around it .would this be a clue to keeping the wheel turning?a lot to think about and so much going on and yes in the center of it all...
can anyone try this on wm2d ?

jupter
just my thoughts.

[Fletcher]

As an aside Stewart .. Medieval Cathedrals were constructed using cranes that looked very similar to Besslers wheels. They had a central disk inside of which two men walked [like a hamster cage]. A rope was wound around the axle & passed up & over a derek thru pulleys to the basket or harness on the ground. They could lift a couple of tonnes this way.

Perhaps Bessler also saw his machine as an alternative to the man powered crane ? There obviously was a big apparent difference in lift capability unless scaled up considerably, nevertheless his energy was free & didn't cost any wages or need feeding :)

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

Also feasible then was a "windlass" a elliptical drum attached to the axle. The rope went around this a couple or three times and would slip until one person pulled on the stray end. this would tighten the rope and the weight would be lifted. reduce the tension and the load could be held at a given level. Let loose of the free end and the rigging would fall back without the men in the wheel ever reversing direction.

Where we see the rope around Besslers axle lifting a box of bricks is a prime example of where a windlass could have been placed. Then there would be no controversy of what happened when it ran out of lift. The box of brick could be lowered back to the ground without ever impeding the wheel rotation.

Ralph