Is DNA a universal constant?

[Jim Williams]

Say in the next fifty years or so we find life somewhere in our solar system besides Earth. Will that life be a DNA based life form? If there is life somewhere in the universe besides here, which I'd say is probable, would that life be DNA based or as varied a base as possible? On Earth, as life here is DNA based, did DNA beat out all the other forms of life for DNA to be our our basis for all life as it is?

My arguement for DNA to be a universal constant is that I would guess having one molecule that stretches out to five and a half feet is at a natural limit for a number of atoms in a single molecule, the limit being the speed of light or something. And that coiling of atoms is also natural when you've got enough of them.

My belief is that Earth has some pretty good conditions, molecule friendy wise and DNA based life is universal Earth wise at a minimum. Why not for the rest of space as well?

[Jim Williams]

I'm going to give a bit of background to my thought, then drop it.

Imagine a bunch of atoms of different elements of the Periodic Table hanging around doing nothing. What happens is they form molecules, like H2O and NaCl. Then imagine a bunch of molecules hanging around and what they do is form more complicated molecules, like the amino acids found in comets. I believe this process of forming more complicated molecules remains continuous.

My thought is that given a molecule friendly environment like Earth and four and a half billion years in time, that by chance alone DNA would form out of all these molecules. DNA would last because unlike almost all other molecules DNA has the capacity to duplicate itself generating more and more DNA, thus life began.

I would guess this process is pretty standard thoughout the universe on planets as molecule friendly as Earth. I think Earth is so molecule friendly that DNA is also an end molecule as far as number of atoms in a single molecule goes. If there could be larger molecules, Earth would be pretty ideal place for them to form. I would further guess that the ratio of elements to each other in our solar system is very much the same and as a result the most complicated molecule of different environments of our solar systemt would also be DNA or very DNA like.

So what I'm messing with is how life began on Earth, wondering if that's how life begins throughout the universe and deciding how life began might be easier to determine than what constitutes a Bessler wheel. That's all.

Jim W.

[Techstuf]

Perhaps you would do well to spend some time with the observations of Steven Swinford, a leader on the team who 'cracked' the human genome.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 673663.ece

http://www.rense.com/general71/found.htm


Or perhaps another leading DNA researcher, Francis Collins.


http://www.simonsays.com/content/book.c ... pid=519365



God bless,


TS

[Jim Williams]

Techstuf

I just read my own posts to find them almost unreadable, so I congratulate you on wading through them I suppose. Your references to Francis Collins are actually quite good, although I disagree with him entirely. I relate more to an Einstein quote, (Everyone has Einstein quotes.), "What interests me is if God had a choice in the creation of man." I see no need for an intelligent being to cause DNA to be able to form itself. I would think the laws of physics alone will be enough to prove that in molecule friendly environments like Earth DNA can create itself.

Since I'm not impressed with the clarity of my own posts, I'm going to include the following to confuse the matter even more. Life is a molecule.
Atoms are nonlife. The point to differentiate life from non life is to define the difference between an atom and a molecule as nonlife and life. The result is degrees of life starting with the simplest forms of life, like water, ending in the most complex forms, like DNA. Another way of putting it is the most complex, (meaning the most number of atoms in a single molecule) forms of matter in a given environment defines the degree of life of that environment, like amino acids found in comets.

[Techstuf]

I think I get where you are coming from. Such simplistic viewpoint is faith at it's purest.

Although, one need not look past the 'simple' single cell to see the earmarks of focussed intelligence. What many a true coward attributes to blind chance, the vast majority of the world attributes to a highly advanced being.


"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom".


The evidence to support the existence of a super intelligent creative agency is everywhere and nowhere.


Time is being shortened.....There'll be a pop quiz at the end of the test.....no cheating....we are all being looked after.





He said with a 'twinkle' in his eye.


TS

[ovyyus]

Jim, I think you make interesting and valid points of discussion. Although I personally don't tend to draw such a distinct line between life and non-life in a lively Universe.


Mitch, I think it's unfair that you refer to Jim as a coward just because he has an opinion that differs from your own.

Actually Mitch, given your documented historical conduct (lies, deception, self-delusion - do you need me to reference them for you again?) I'm inclined to think that you might be one of the last people to offer any serious or useful opinion or position on matters of morality and truth. However, I'm sure you do have certain insights into cowardice, though they probably aren't useful either.

[MrTim]

A possible non-DNA life form could have as it's basis something along the lines of our computer microchips. We (as humans) are only now starting to produce microchips at a molecular level. If such small devices had the ability to replicate themselves, and a proper environment where they could "evolve" unmolested from "higher life forms", who knows what they could eventually turn into? Given the possibility that humans actually design such an ability into them, and that we go extinct for some reason, millions of years from then Earth would have "life" of a new kind inhabiting and evolving on it's surface, eventually reaching some point of sentience.

The theological implications are staggering....

;)

[winkle]

I would guess this process is pretty standard thoughout the universe on planets as molecule friendly as Earth. I think Earth is so molecule friendly that DNA is also an end molecule as far as number of atoms in a single molecule goes. If there could be larger molecules, Earth would be pretty ideal place for them to form. I would further guess that the ratio of elements to each other in our solar system is very much the same and as a result the most complicated molecule of different environments of our solar systemt would also be DNA or very DNA like.



Jim W.

the part i like best is the third word in this paragraph

problem is how do you get past that very annoying word

and just who the heck coined that word anyway life would be much simpler without it

then we could just speak something and that's the way it would be

kinda like God i suppose


just out of curiosity how many atoms are there in a piece of DNA ?

i belive if folks knew the number they would have a better picture of what you are talking about

anyway your guess is as good as anyone else's

[docfeelsgood]

Jim Williams ; in my travels recently i found a book that i find quite interesting. "The Day After Roswell" written by Col. Philip J. Corso . B.1915-D.1998 ? . [researcable on net] . he describes the beings that were on the craft & also the craft itself . it is described as an anti gravitational drive system that scientists have never been able to figure out to this day. there was no fuel or food supply found aboard the craft when it crashed in New Mexico approx. 1947 ? as a young lad at the time i do remember the crash and the ensuing murmur it created worldwide . myself i have always thought that something very important happened there . i believe you would find his thoughts very intrigeing on the makeup of these beings . apparenty the whole Roswell deal fell in his lap during the 1960s as a high ranking pentagon official . anyhow worth reading !! Cheers .

[Jim Williams]

My defining the difference between nonlife and life as the difference between between an atom and a molecule is entirely arbitrary and I do it only for my own convenience. I just like some line drawn somewhere that separates the living being consisting of myself and the iron in iron ore. I'll try thinking of myself as alive as the sun and see how far I get. Otherwise, considering my definition results in an apparent abundance of life throughout the galaxies on planets in particular, all molecules being life forms, I wondered one day if it was better to think of the universe as matter and energy containing life forms or was it better to think of the universe as one life form also containing matter and energy? I may leave the question to Mitch who seems to be obsessed with such problems.

A way of getting around guessing is to pose a question in its place, one of my favorites being the title of an article in Astronomy Magazine which is, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" I like it because it reminds me I do exist along with everything else, although I also tend to pass on if I need share my existence with a Supreme Being.

I'm fascinated by molecular level computers but I would think for a computer to be a life form it would literally need to duplicate the entire computer into a second computer and that strikes me as pretty far in the future.

All the farther i've gotten to Roswell is Steven Speilberg. Thanks for the reference though. I'm struck with cuttlefish at the moment as being alien intellegences.

[winkle]

A way of getting around guessing is to pose a question in its place, one of my favorites being the title of an article in Astronomy Magazine which is, "Why is there something instead of nothing?" I like it because it reminds me I do exist along with everything else, although I also tend to pass on if I need share my existence with a Supreme Being.

not really
although posing the question will delay the guess for a few seconds

[DrWhat]

Gravity is the precursor to life, the key to life. After the (presumed) BIG BANG, if there were no gravity, matter would not have clumped together, and (once cooled) life would not have emerged.

It is those gravitational and electromagnetic/electrostatic forces that entice matter to become more complex. Complexity is assured due to these forces. The easiest bonds are made first dependent on surrounding conditions. So working with gravity we are dealing with the catalyst of all life.

DNA is the top of the chain in terms of complexity. Time allows things to become more complex.

The universe has had plenty of time to develop complexity. DNA is perhaps the easiest route to high complexity in our environment. Other planets may have other forms of DNA.

I think one of the biggest discoveries that will emerge eventually is that DNA changes WITHIN a being during that being's life to a very small extent (not just through natural selection etc), speeding up evolution. I have no scientific basis for this, just a hunch.

[Techstuf]

I may leave the question to Mitch who seems to be obsessed with such problems

Such problems beg obession only by those still seeking answers. If I am obsessed, it is with sharing such answers as may inspire more productive questions.


http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm



TS

[winkle]

A possible non-DNA life form could have as it's basis something along the lines of our computer microchips. We (as humans) are only now starting to produce microchips at a molecular level. If such small devices had the ability to replicate themselves, and a proper environment where they could "evolve" unmolested from "higher life forms", who knows what they could eventually turn into? Given the possibility that humans actually design such an ability into them, and that we go extinct for some reason, millions of years from then Earth would have "life" of a new kind inhabiting and evolving on it's surface, eventually reaching some point of sentience.

The theological implications are staggering....

;)

i suppose they might also need to learn how to replicate a power plant
mabe learn to mine copper and gold
build a wire factory
and on
and on
and on

i think they already have these on star trak
i belive they are called replicaters

mabe if we go extinct :( they will screw up and rebuild us :)

i belive China already has replicaters and if i remember right they work in what we call sweat shops

hummm

replicaters may not be that intelligent

[winkle]

I think one of the biggest discoveries that will emerge eventually is that DNA changes WITHIN a being during that being's life to a very small extent (not just through natural selection etc), speeding up evolution. I have no scientific basis for this, just a hunch.

you maybe right
i started out in life a very small bawling squalling beggar
then i evolved into 6 ft. example of humanity
i am presently evolving into the worlds largest wrinkle