Why Perpetual Motion Machines Are Impossible.

[rlortie]

Lib,

There is another law that is not discussed here, "Law Of Probability" I like Pascal's version as he was around when Bessler made his debute.

Do I have a perpetual motion machine or a gravity wheel? You do not know for certain one way or the other. You assume from probability that I do not, therefore you believe that existing laws of conservation is not neccessarily wrong.

If you believe that certain hypothetical laws based on hypothesis cannot be changed then you will never be able to do so! But the laws of probability IMO favor the odds that they will!

Suggest you and other members do a search and read up on It. Yahoo search has some very good leads. Wikipedia being one of them. Law of probability or Pascal will bring results!

Ralph

[LustInBlack]

Ralph, you got it about right, I believe those laws are right.

However, there are phenomenon that do not necessarily violates them .

We ride on a gear (earth), thus, there is a power source driving it.

No violation .

Locally, I believe it's true.

But globally, it's false.. Energy has been created somewhere, so there is a possibility to actually create energy.

But Bessler's wheel is more about using an energy source..

I believe the energy source is chaos ..
Chaotic motion..

[graham]

I have become more cautious in calling Besslers wheels "Gravity Wheels".
They could have been powered by gravity but we don't KNOW that for sure do we?
Bessler never said they were powered by gravity, he said something like "one side is heavy while the other is empty and light".
He gives the impression that gravity is turning his wheels but maybe that's just what he wanted the reader to think. To steer them in the wrong direction

Lib, we should call them Perpetual Motion Wheels . That much we do know for sure.

Graham

[rlortie]

LIB, and Graham,

I believe the energy source is chaos ..
Chaotic motion..

My door is always open for such thoughts. Chaos means the disordered state held to exist before the ordered universe.

It certainly does not hold much probability as being in a symmetrical OOB wheel!

I am apprehensive on calling it a perpetual motion wheel, I fear the this would give new meaning to the word "chaos". IMO it does rely on gravity but not necessarily is the driving force limited to a wheel design. Therefore "gravity engine" would be my choice.

A combustion engine nor a steam engine require a wheel as we perceive the usage of the term wheel. Both may drive a wheel but they could be deemed chaotic in their reciprocation.

Microsoft Encarta has 10 definitions for a wheel, I like number 10; To whirl around,changing direction; pivot.

[Seeking but never finding equilibrium] is to me a fair assumption that gravity is the key.

Ralph

[GadgetGeek]

If I remember correctly, didn't Bessler mention that the "device" wouldn't function without gravity?

[jim_mich]

(from page 89 of John Collin's book PM-AAMS)

inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement. Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, on the contrary these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself; as from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to placed together, so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wondrous speedy flight, one or another of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn will also move.

Bessler seems to say that the force to swing the weights comes from their own swinging, while being out of center causes gravity to turn the wheel.

[GadgetGeek]

I believe that Bessler also said that the device was shaped as a "wheel" only to hide the mechanism inside.

So, I guess that "Gravity Engine" would probably be the best thing to call it since it isn't necessarily a wheel and it can't function without gravity.

[jim_mich]

I believe that Bessler also said that the device was shaped as a "wheel" only to hide the mechanism inside.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Bessler ever made such a statement.

[GadgetGeek]

I could swear that I read it somewhere... I'll look to see if I can find it again.

[graham]

[Seeking but never finding equilibrium] is to me a fair assumption that gravity is the key.

You make a good point here Ralph. The only problem I have with it is that it is one of Besslers clues from his descriptions.
I'm a bit leery of his clues.

Graham

[rlortie]

I believe that Bessler also said that the device was shaped as a "wheel" only to hide the mechanism inside.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Bessler ever made such a statement.

Possibly you are thinking of Al Bacons version:

Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum
Johann Bessler, Kassel, 1719, pp. 16-23
Provided by Al Bacon
Translation by Ted of Chicago
Except for a small change in the external dimensions of the wheel for raising weights (or so-called "running wheel"), I have organized everything together in accordance with those structures of the previous machine which I had broken to pieces. These small changes occurred by chance and do not need to be defended.

Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (or lower cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen. The base of the cylinder is 12 Rhenish feet in diameter. The height (or thickness) is between 15 and 18 inches. The axle (or shaft) passing through the center is 6 feet long and 8 inches thick cross-sectionally.

While in motion it is supported by two almost one-inch-thick tapered steel pegs, whose two bearings (or sockets) with two curves around the axle provide the rotational motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel through application of pendula, which can be somewhat modified, as the attached figures at the end of this treatise clearly show.

The internal structure of this drum (or wheel) consists of weights arranged according to several a priori, that is, scientifically demonstrable, laws of mechanical perpetual motion. After the wheel completes a single rotation, or after a single force is applied to the wheel, the motion drives the wheel unceasingly. As long as the wheel’s whole structure does not change, the wheel continues its revolutions without any further assistance from external motive power. Other automatic machines, such as clockwork, springs, and hoisting weights, necessarily require an external restoring force.

The upper weight is not attached to an external mechanism, nor does it rely on external moving bodies by means of whose weight revolutions continue as long as the cords or chains on which they hang permit. As long as it remains outside the center of gravity, this upper weight incessantly exercises universal motion from which the essential constituent parts of the machine receive power and push. These parts are enclosed in a case and are coordinated with one another so that they not only never again reach an equilibrium (or point of rest) for themselves but incessantly seek with their admirably fast swing to move and drive on the axis of their vortices loads that are vertically applied from the outside and are proportional to the size of the housing. /cut/

Ralph

[ovyyus]

If I remember correctly, didn't Bessler mention that the "device" wouldn't function without gravity?

A water wheel can't function without gravity either. Any overbalancing device can not function without gravity. I guess we know that already :)

...gain force from their own swinging...

Jim, I think you'll find that the word translated as "swinging" isn't so specific and might also be translated as "motion", ie: "...gain force from their own motion...". I guess it's not that important though. IMO, Bessler is stating the obvious - that gravity acting upon weights turns the wheel, and that wheel overbalance arises from the motion of its internal weights. What he doesn't mention is what actually drives the weights - his secret.

[MrTim]

"Do I have a perpetual motion machine or a gravity wheel?"

If it uses gravity to assist it in it's turning, then you have a "gravity wheel".
If once started it continues running past your lifetime, then to all intents and purposes, it's "perpetual".
:p

[bluesgtr44]

.....pointy???......;-o...


Steve

[rlortie]

MrTim,

Do you have a perpetual motion machine, or gravity wheel!? ..

These words are LIB's from the bottom of the previous page.

I would rather address the public and the PTO with the designation of a Gravity Engine or motor. Not unlike a gasoline engine burning gasoline or a steam engine that can run on any combustible material, it runs on gravity. (If it runs!)

As long as it does not run out of fuel (which is unlikely) then it should run until it wears out. If it should run out of fuel I doubt that anyone would be here to care. :-)

MY current design for a gravity engine does not rely on a wheel but rather drives a drum. So IMO to name it a gravity wheel would be a misconception. I no longer get excited about OOB or weight displacement type designs relating to a wheel.

I am not keeping track of parts as Jim_Mich is doing but I do know that I have cut up and used over 116 feet of 3/8" All-thread purchased in six foot lengths. There are 48 16" pieces making up the radius of my drum and each use four flat washers, four lock washers and four nuts.

I specify drum, as the driving mechanism is rectangular in shape and is hidden in the drum which acts as a flywheel.

Ralph