Is Force different from Energy ?

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Bess007...

Bessler wrote:

the inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement.

jim_mich
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:05 pm
Post subject: Gain force from their own swinging.

That is one interpretation....here is another one:

DT...page 190...J. Collins pub.

"The internal structure of the wheel is designed in such a way that weights applied in accordance with the laws of Perperual Motion, work, once a small impessed force has caused the commencement of movement, to perpetuate the said movement and cause the rotation to continue indefinitely - that is, as long as the device retains its structural intergrity - without the necessity of external assistance for its continuation - such as the mechanisms which are to be found in other automatics - eg clockwork, springs or weights that require rewinding. For this concept, my "principle of excess weight", is NOT just an external appendage, an "added-on device" which is there in order to cause, through application of its weight, the continuation of the motion (the revolution) so long as the cords or chains, from which it depends, permit. NO, these weights are themselves the PM device, the "essential constituent parts" which must of necessity continue to exercise their motive force (derived from the PM principle) indefinitely - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity. To this end they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium or "point of rest", but they must forever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing, This velocity is sufficient for the moving and raising of loads applied to the axis of rotation."

I find this tranlational difference to be pretty huge....no offense to anyone who uses the former, I just ask that you please give this other, more indepth, interpretation a bit of consideration.....notice the word "swinging" is not mentioned....just trying to be "scientific"....please, please.....

"Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions."

....it is just not definitely, absolutely, positively....."swinging"....it's just not! Sorry......


Steve

[Bessler007]

It's all relative Michael. Are people flying by you with ideas beyond your imagination or are you flying by with shades of brilliance? Without some absolute frame of reference we may never know.

I've attached two frames of the pendulum I'm working on. I'd explain the details of how this sim launches 20.1 kilos a meter into the air in 0.001 seconds but as you can see it's top secret. I have no idea how it calculates the energetic force of the swing but you should notice it swings along the x-axis beyond where it began and rises a little over a meter above it's origin on the y-axis. Four frames later (0.002 seconds) it's still moving up. It takes my computer about 4 minutes to compute each frame.

If you think that the statement the weights gain force from their swing actually yeilds useful information, as in by our definition generates extra potential energy, then tell us how and prove me wrong.

[Bessler007]

bluesgtr44,

What are the sources of the two translations?

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Bess007,

What are the sources of the two translations?

I gave the one I had done. DT...page 190...J. Collins pub....the other can be found on websites throughout the internet...Ted Bacon I believe. I prefer J. Collins, his history and dedication to the authenticity of this information is well documented and there is no disputing his reputation as far as I am concerned....JMHO...


Steve

[bluesgtr44]

Owww, Bess...

I've attached two frames of the pendulum I'm working on. I'd explain the details of how this sim launches 20.1 kilos a meter into the air in 0.001 seconds but as you can see it's top secret. I have no idea how it calculates the energetic force of the swing but you should notice it swings along the x-axis beyond where it began and rises a little over a meter above it's origin on the y-axis. Four frames later (0.002 seconds) it's still moving up. It takes my computer about 4 minutes to compute each frame.

Now, I respect sims, but this is not a good representation of what I would call "evidence"...I am willing to take a good look, no problem...let's slow down and take a good look...


Steve

[Bessler007]

bluesgtr44,

Nothing short of a build is evidence. This simulation is significant for a couple of reasons. First it's only two steps with the steps set at 2000 per second. There isn't enough time in it running to induce much error. Also the first step rises 1/10 of a meter and the second step is at a meter. It is accelerating.

Finally I can describe the principle in about 5 words. I had some idea of the design before I began.

[John Collins]

This is Henry Dirck's translation of the same text.
"The inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of mechanical perpetual motion, so arranged that by disposed weights once
in rotation they gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement. Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, on the contrary, these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetuum mobile itself; as from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the center of gravity ; and when they come to be placed together, and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderous speedy flight, one or other of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn will also move."

JC

[Stewart]

I'm conscious of the fact that some people want more precise translations, and won't accept those of others as being the final word, and quite rightly too. I've come up with a way that will hopefully help those with little or no knowledge of German, Latin & French to study Bessler related texts. It's still a work in progress, and to get the most out of it you would still require an understanding of the grammar. Where it will really be useful is for everyone to be able to see just which words are there or not, even if you're unable to sort out the correct word order. In recent discussions regarding the DT wheel descriptions, one translation has added "for raising weights", and another misses out the part about "the force of the swing/drive/momentum". You will be able to see for yourself just what should or shouldn't be there. The software I've written will be available for people to use on my website when it opens, and you will be able to study the whole of MT, and eventually DT & AP too, as well as any other old texts. In the meantime I'll post links to it's output for certain pieces of text which we are discussing at the moment, starting with the DT wheel descriptions.

There are several issues that make it difficult to attempt a translation of documents from Bessler's time: 1) the spellings for many words have changed since Bessler's time; 2) it was common at the time to use some words from other languages, mainly Latin, but sometimes French, and also a combination of foreign word stem with German ending. These two things alone mean that running a passage of text from a Bessler document through a normal piece of translation software will give results that are practically useless. My database of words contains the Latin words and Latin/German combinations, and the old German spellings, and currently has over 3000 words.

It can sometimes be difficult to provide English translations for some of the old pieces of text, as rephrasing the text into grammatically correct English without straying too far from exactly what is said is tricky. I always try to keep as closely to the German structure as possible, but it's often necessary to completely re-order or re-phrase sentences for them to read properly in English.

Anyway, I'm hoping the software will at least be of some help to some of you - it certainly saves me a great deal of time when doing translations. I'll post links and translations of the DT wheel descriptions shortly.

Stewart

[rlortie]

Stewart,

Out of curiosity founded by my own translation research, how is the word "Rocking" spelled during Bessler's day, and is their anything similar that you have ran across?

Thank you,

Ralph

[docfeelsgood]

mebie all you high rollers should throw away all them sheepskins hangin on the wall that ya got on ebay !! quit your job and go ta work on a ranch or something buildin fence !! read as per steves post above JC-DT page 190 . throw away your baseball caps and set a traffic cone up there instead !!!!

[Bessler007]

Doc,

Don't be upset over some sheep skinned and glued to a frame with letters tattooed to it hanging off my wall. There are still plenty in the pasture needing their fences mended.

mebie...

[Bessler007]

Mr Collins,

There is quite a difference between the translations. Could you post the Latin?

Clues might led to the same conclusion observation does, then they might not. If you could post the Latin I'd like to try my hand at translation.

[Bessler007]

hicup....

[Bessler007]

I find this tranlational difference to be pretty huge....no offense to anyone who uses the former, I just ask that you please give this other, more indepth, interpretation a bit of consideration.....notice the word "swinging" is not mentioned....just trying to be "scientific"....please, please.....

"Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions."

....it is just not definitely, absolutely, positively....."swinging"....it's just not! Sorry......


Steve

bluesgtr44,

I'd like to speak to the two emboldened parts of your quote. The quote Jim posted is 49 words. The Collins translation is 249. It is an understatement to say I find this tranlational difference to be pretty huge. It makes me wonder if they are translations from the same text.

No matter what question you ask if you don't get the right answer the solution isn't going to be a good one. I'm not one to examine Bessler's clues to the depth others have gone but if I were I would investigate the why of the huge difference in word count between the Collin's translation and the Dirck's. I think also I would put more stock in the Latin vs. the Old German.

I also don't think the Collin's translation is more in depth just because there are more words.

A final point:

No matter what we think we understand about what Bessler said, until there is an answer anything is open for investigation.

[Stewart]

Bessler007,

John's translation are the more accurate of the two. I'm currently analysing both the German and Latin text in my private forum - I've made you a member. Anyone else who wants access just request it on the 'Groups' page.
I've posted a rough translation of the German external wheel description, but I am waiting to finish the Latin before finalising it. The Latin & German texts are different, but essentially say the same thing. Here's a link to the output generated by my translation software for the German text - I'll post another link for the Latin text soon, and also the German & Latin internal wheel descriptions...

http://www.johannbessler.com/DT_wheel_external.html

You'll still need an understanding of German grammar to make sense of the output, but if nothing else you can see what words are there or not.
(NB: javascript must be enabled for the word highlighting to work)

In my forum you'll find the original Latin text for the DT wheel descriptions if you want to try translating it yourself (see the "Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM - The Triumphant Orffyrean Perpetual Motion Machine" topic").


Stewart