the clues give it away

[rlortie]

Deven,

[Let people believe that it is an OOB wheel, and that is where they will look.]

I agree with your above post!

One translated version basically states (out of context) that if the people wish to call it a wheel then it shall be called a wheel resembling a grindstone.

True; he stuck the whole shebang! in a canvas covered drum, the first one being covered with veneer.

Do you know the German multiple meanings for veneer? It does not only mean a thin layer of wood or layers of thin wood bonded together.

As for the answer I will wait and see if there is any response from our learned German translating members.

Ralph

[DrWhat]

To me this is perhaps the biggest set of clues we can work with. I was perplexed by posts some time ago that decided that the tall broken columns were the two support pillars for the main axle. Tall broken columns relates to a historical sight like the parthenon, where ruins exist and children jump from one broken column to the next. These columns that once supported a roof structure are broken and their 'shorter' ruins remain. He says TALL broken columns which I think is a major clue.

[rlortie]

Tall broken columns! Please tell me where this version transpires from?

The translated version that I refer to is from Apologia and reads:
Children play among the pillars with loud heavy clubs.

Ralph

[DrWhat]

Ralph, I am happy to be contradicted if a quote I am using comes from an incorrect translation from an original text.

This is the text (again) with the link I got the 'broken columns" from:

‘The levers loaded with heavy weights as viewed from the side, may be compared to side views of many children playing with very heavy clubs among tall broken columns. The strongest of the children cannot lift the lightest of the clubs. Still, each child can swing (or you might call it "step" as it uses a club as a "leg") from the top of one broken column to the top of the next broken column by positioning his heavy club on the ground between the two close columns and holding on to the handle end to swing over to the top of the next column. Then he rotates the handle end of his club to maneuver it between his current column and his next intended column so that he can again "step" or swing a small angle over to the top of the next intended broken column. If the clubs are even heavier by being double-ended, then instead of rolling them to the next position, they may be alternatively transported between the columns by switching ends. A double club may be moved in seesaw fashion by leaning it against the current broken column that the child is on and rolling it over the top of the column (assuming that there is enough room for the child to stay on top of the column). The double club is pivoted with a circular motion with one end going up while the other end goes down.5’ Orffyreus put his simple explanation that even child would grasp.

http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html

[ovyyus]

DrWhat, that webpage is someone's made up story - an ugly mix of quotes and channeled fictional rubbish. Throw it out the window.

[DrWhat]

I have :) Thanks

[arthur]

MT 18 and MT 25

are my favorite MT's.

surely slight changes can make them work.

[arthur]

"Due to the arrest, I burned and buried all papers that prove the possibility. However, I have left all demonstrations and experiments, since it would be difficult for anybody to see or learn anything about a perpetual motion from them or to decide whether there was any truth in them because no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however, taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement and, finally to find one in them."

- Orffyreus

[evgwheel]

Arthur, if that is close to a fact; it will only show us to take any translations with a grain of salt. Besslers hints are suspicious (to translation), as he did not want to leave any clues and in my opinion. To except that Bessler had such a working wheel is the right of any person. To re-invent a working wheel form Besslers writing or images is very unlikely. For that reason I believe if a fiction article sound good to anyone, they should go with it. So far, with all the man-hours spent on Bessler hints we haven’t done much good. It will not do us any harm to look outside the square and open our minds to anything you feel that could have merit.
After saying all that, I won't give up on Bessler. EVG

[bluesgtr44]

An important clue to me is from the DT passage that gets so much attention....DT page 191...J. Collins....

" - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity. To this end they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium or "point of rest", but they must for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing."

...I do not think this structure or framework is the stretched linen or whatever that concealed the secret mechanism....I think this is the secret mechanism or a part of it....


Steve

[jim_mich]

Bessler's words say very clearly that the structure or framework (the enclosure made of wood and covered with cloth) is simply used to enclose and frame the internal machanisms. Every machine uses a framework or structure to support and hold in place the varius mechanical components. This is the function of the wooden structual framework of Bessler's wheel that is visible and covered with cloth to hide the internal mechanisms and weights. Of course the weights must move else they cannot become out of balance and turn the wheel. There is much evidence to show that weights swing on the ends of levers. These levers need pivot points attached to the structural framework. The swinging of the weights is co-ordinated such that they are forever out of balance. Coordination requires a means to coordinate, so there must be some mechanisms to do the coordinating and these might also need attachments to the wheel shaped structural framework. The bigger the wheel and more massive the weight, the more force the weights develop, which is just common sense.

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Jim.....

Bessler's words say very clearly that the structure or framework (the enclosure made of wood and covered with cloth) is simply used to enclose and frame the internal machanisms.

I beg to differ, Jim....I think he refers to that part as the "housing" in this small bit.

" - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity. To this end they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium or "point of rest", but they must for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing."

Just an opinion....


Steve

[jim_mich]

If you're inside a house then the structure or framwork that you are inside of is your housing. The housing, stucture, framework, enclosure all refer to the same thing. Using multiple words to describe something is a common comunication practice. Bessler uses it many times. I really don't see why there is any question here? The wooden framework stucture houses the internal mechanism that causes the whole outside wheel shaped wooden framework structure to rotate. This is so simple and clear that I'm amazed that anyone might not understand what Bessler is saying.

[bluesgtr44]

This is so simple and clear that I'm amazed that anyone might not understand what Bessler is saying.

...I've read it over again a few times...I see your point, just not as simple and clear as you...I may be splitting hairs on an interpretational issue.


Steve

[Fletcher]

An important clue to me is from the DT passage that gets so much attention....DT page 191...J. Collins....

" - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity. To this end they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium or "point of rest", but they must for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing."

...I do not think this structure or framework is the stretched linen or whatever that concealed the secret mechanism....I think this is the secret mechanism or a part of it....

Steve .. I also take Jim's point on board about Bessler's use of different words to describe a simple thing. At face value & one level it could be read as a description of the wheel housing & structure in both instances.

It is my feeling that Bessler wasn't above having double meanings i.e. secondary levels [how could he resist] & plays on words, that we might recognize & decipher in time - probably with 20/20 hindsight. Given that assumption of human nature, it is also possible that there was a deeper meaning to the words 'structure & framework' in that context, as you originally thought.

The key to that particular passage is the word enclosed & was that the only translation possible or was it just a best fit in the mind of the translator ? It may have meant for example envelope; surround; or perhaps a less precise meaning for channel; direct; persuade, by physical shepherding ? Wolf reportedly did see curved/warped boards after all.

What I mean by this is that Bessler must have had a physical way to move/direct weights out-of-balance [to change the CoM of each lever as an example] to keep the wheel continually overbalanced. This 'shifting ability' must have come from his prime moving force which appears to have been generated by dynamic elements within the wheel, which must have then acted on/caused a physical structure to move !

If that were true then you would be right to question a deeper meaning to the words 'structure & framework' in the above context.