Bessler's Secret Force

[10x]

from them is received the universal movement

And what is that?

I consider it oscillation.

[Deven]

He states that the reason they continue on their paths is because they can never reach equilibrium because of the way they are aranged. Doesn't this point to gravity?

If I built one of the MT designs, say MT9, and added a power supply which is timed and coordinated by the movement of the weights, and then restricted my description of it to only that of the function and purpose of the weights, then I think I would end up with something along the lines of what Bessler describes.

I understand what you're saying, but when he says that they are arranged in a way that they can never reach equillibrium, how do you explain that? Do you think he was referring to that the weights arranged will never reach equillibrium (as long as I have my power supply). If this was the case, there would be no need for an overbalanced wheel, he could simply strap his device onto a wheel and watch it turn. Why would he go through all of the trouble?

When he says "he found it where everyone else had looked" does this not imply that it was gravity that was the answer?

I don't know, maybe we'll have to agree to disagree!

[winkle]

Deven

He states that the reason they continue on their paths is because they can never reach equilibrium because of the way they are aranged. Doesn't this point to gravity?

ovyyus

If I built one of the MT designs, say MT9, and added a power supply which is timed and coordinated by the movement of the weights, and then restricted my description of it to only that of the function and purpose of the weights, then I think I would end up with something along the lines of what Bessler describes.

the only way Bessler's statement is full and correct for most is if their pet theory of the moment agrees with his statement

all to often it's better Bessler be wrong than the pet theory

10x

I consider it oscillation.

webster
oscillation
to move or travel back and forth between two points

i would say if anything moves at all in the wheel that you have a very safe guess

[Fletcher]

think Bessler is describing his secret here. He says quite plainly that the weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself. I really don't see how anyone can think otherwise. He goes on to give more details as he says from them is received the universal movement.

Guys, listen to what Bessler is saying! It is the movement of the weights that is the secret. The weights are the essential part. The weights constitute perpetual motion. As long as they remain out of the center of gravity they receive the universal movement that keeps them moving. Bessler is not talking specifically about the wheel remaining out of the center of gravity; he's talking about the weights themselves remaining out of the center of gravity.

Of course this is just my opinion. Everyone if free to reject what I say. But do you guys reject what Bessler says?

From Deven's post

'Inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement. Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, on the contrary these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself; as from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or another of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn must also move.' - Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile, Bessler, 1719.

I do not reject it Jim .. I just don't think it goes far enough !

... 'Inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion,

... so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging,

... and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement.

... Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, on the contrary these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself;

... as from them is received the universal movement

... which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity;

... and when they come to be placed together, so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium,

... or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or another of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn must also move.' - Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile, Bessler, 1719.[/quote]

Bessler's words IMO :

Part One : Structures & Rotation :

The wheels inward structure is so arranged that weights once in rotation [the wheel is rotating] gain force [a force is produced] from their swinging/motion [weights are moving within a dynamic rotating wheel] - must continue movement so long as the structure does not lose position or arrangement [the structure does not loose its function/purpose]

Part Two : The Weights & the OOB System :

These weights are the essential parts & constitute perpetual motion itself - as from them is received the universal movement - which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the center of gravity - & when placed together so arranged they can never find equilibrium - they seek in their wondrous speedy flight - one must apply its torque to one side of the axle.

My Opinion :

I think their is clear indication in his words that their is an internal structure that develops a force that aids the weights find their overbalance position so avoiding the 'keel' & allowing at least one weight at all times to be applying asymmetric torque to the axle. This would be due to that weight temporarily being further from the axle on that side of the wheel than its counterpart on the other side.

Therefore there must be a physical structure that plays a part - the weights are influenced by it so that they can be positioned to be overbalanced in their arrangement.

[Michael]

Okay. What did Bessler mean when he said it was always summer inside his machine?

[ovyyus]

I understand what you're saying, but when he says that they are arranged in a way that they can never reach equillibrium, how do you explain that?

IMO, Bessler simply states the obvious - that a wheel designed to create an overbalance must use weights that are never allowed to find equilibrium.

Do you think he was referring to that the weights arranged will never reach equillibrium (as long as I have my power supply).

Yes.

If this was the case, there would be no need for an overbalanced wheel, he could simply strap his device onto a wheel and watch it turn. Why would he go through all of the trouble?

When Bessler first encountered the long established pursuit of the overbalanced wheel he was told that anyone who could produce such a thing would be richly rewarded. Bessler's intent was to satisfy the accepted definition of "true perpetual motion" in the form of the classic overbalanced wheel and collect his reward.

When he says "he found it where everyone else had looked" does this not imply that it was gravity that was the answer?

He did find it where everyone had looked - in the pursuit of the overbalanced wheel.

I don't know, maybe we'll have to agree to disagree!

Not yet :)

[Fletcher]

Can you find the exact quote Michael ? IIRC he said his wheels would still operate in the depths of winter when all other machines had iced up/frozen solid ?

That would indicate to me that his machine had losses - one of them excess heat - especially within an enclosed canvass covered environment - therefore outside cold could not penetrate & freeze his components - so it could keep running when others would stop or slow JMO's.

[jim_mich]

Fletcher,
Obviously you can't just place some swinging weights inside a wheel and expect any 'magic', so yes there must be some 'structure' in the wheel that is associated with the weights.

[Fletcher]

On that we can agree wholeheartedly - in fact the only reliable & independent information we have about the inside workings of the wheel was from Wolf who peeked inside & saw curved/warped boards.

These could be guides or something else - we don't know whether they were attached to the wheel proper [like guides] or some part of the swinging motion & weights set up ?

[Michael]

I'll see if I can find it tomorrow Fletcher. The quote came up close to two years ago. Stewart would probably remember. The debate at the time was whether the quote was to be taken literally or not. I did see the words, always summer inside the wheel.

[jim_mich]

How much accuracy can you place on what was seen through a tiny crack?

[Fletcher]

More than my imagination !

[Michael]

Not that it matters much but wasn't it a hole? Probably the same hole Bessler said he put there to peek and poke around to fix any repairs without having to open the wheel up. Which brings up another point though, he did open it up to bring out the weights. Any notes on how the canvass was opened?

[Fletcher]

From Bill's web site

'When Orffyreus exhibited the extraordinary machine which he had built, to refute the malicious rumours being spread that it is fraudulent, I was deliberately present. The mechanic, Gartner, in particular, who is so famous for his many celebrated mechanical inventions, has distributed in public a copper-engraving on which is a slanderous picture showing how Orffyreus' machine was moved by means of a cord from an adjoining room. We have demonstrated that in reality Orffyreus' wheel is far removed from any such deception. The investigation was conducted in the presence of representatives from the Court of the Duke and other guests. When the machine was ready to rotate, all adjacent rooms were opened and the bearings were completely uncovered. To prevent anyone accidentally seeing the internal structure of the machine, he covered it. Whilst he did this, he did not disguise the fact that the mechanism is moved by weights. Several such weights, wrapped in his handkerchief, he let us weigh in our hands to estimate their weight. They were judged to be about four pounds each, and their shape was definitely cylindrical.
I conclude, not only from this but also from other circumstantial evidence, that the weights are attached to some moveable or elastic arms on the periphery of the wheel. During rotation, one can clearly hear the weights hitting against the wooden boards. I was able to observe these through a slit. They are slightly warped. When he put the wheel onto another support and reinstalled the weights in their previous positions, he pushed down on an iron spring that gave a loud noise as it expanded upwards. I therefore presume that there is no doubt that the wheel is moved by an internal source of power, but we cannot necessarily assume that it is perpetual. Furthermore, the machine may be of little value to the public unless it can be improved. At the moment it can lift a weight of sixty pounds, but to achieve this the pulley had to be reduced more than four times, making the lifting quite slow. The diameter of the wheel is about twelve feet, and as well, the bearing was quite thin, about one quarter of an inch and only a sixth of its length was subject to friction.' - Christian Wolff, letter to Leibniz, examination of Merseburg wheel, 19th December, 1715.


Michael .. I think your reference to 'summer' was in DT - try the wiki.

[Michael]

Sure, but Bessler said there was a hole as well. Could it have been the same thing?