arthur's design

[KAS]

Arthur,

It doesn't make any difference where the springing takes place. TherE will be a reaction. If it happens on the ascent, there will be additional forces counteracting the lift. If it happens on the descent, the weight will be lighter for a brief period. The impact will be too sudden and violent with the wheel struggling to use the energy from the impact.

Bessler also experienced this in the attached MT drawing (courtesy of John Collins). The spring is in the elastic arms.

Kas

[arthur]

It doesn't make any difference where the springing takes place. TherE will be a reaction.

yes, of course.

what I'm saying is this:

- springs accelerate weight from 12:00 to 3:00.

- springs apply back-torque as a result.

- force gained from spring-induced downward acceleration is greater than back-torque.

I consider my design to be a significantly improved MT18.

[jonnynet]

It looks like a not allowed sign, which is not allowed in Germany since second world war.

Everyone will know what you mean! But such a realisation should be out of place here.

To the design: It's nice drawn but I see not a little chance for success. A quick build with WM2D and we've the answer. Such types of designs are tried many times before - with and without springs - there's guaranted no chance.

[arthur]

Hi Arthur,
in your design you store gravitational energy in the springs on the left side, and release it on the right side.
Hope that your design will work.

thanks, georg.

I know what you mean too,
it's unfortunate there is such a negative association to this pattern/design
if only a world without nazis.
.....................................................
anyway,
it is not just the springs that I see moving this wheel,
but I believe they will add power..

[KAS]

Arthur,

If you are refereing to me with you Nazi reference because I can see no milage in you design, then I would prefer you didn't.
Many of my family died fighting them and I take umbrage to it.

Anyway, if you are not willing to learn from others experience on this forum, which by the way is the result of many years experience, then I am afraid you will learn the hard way. The problem is - it will take many years to learn from your own mistakes. Trust me on this.

This design has been tried many, many times.

Kas

[DrWhat]

Arthur, just build it, have fun with it, and afterwards, once you have learnt it won't work, build one that works. Just hurry up :). You might be the chosen one!
Make us proud.
ps Excellent drawing regardless.

[arthur]

Arthur,

If you are refereing to me with you Nazi reference because I can see no milage in you design, then I would prefer you didn't.
Many of my family died fighting them and I take umbrage to it.

KAS,
I apologize for the misunderstanding.
I was only implying that a world without tyranny would be nice.
... [and the unfortunate coincidence that this design partially resembles a symbol of tyranny.]
anyway all this is besides the point, let's move on.
.............................
........

This design has been tried many, many times.

I do not doubt this.
certainly I am not the first to conceive this design.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has built this design.

[graham]

Arthur I HAVE built this design . It was one of my earliest attempts a long time ago.
The reason it won't run is simple and it all comes down to one word, INERTIA.
You see, that weight you are lifting with the flexible arm has inertia due to its mass.
The flexible arm is accelerating the weight to get it back to its home position but due to the inertia of its mass, the weight resists this "Push" exerted on it resulting in a "countertorque" which slows the whole wheel .
Weights accelerated with springs will also result in this same countertorque.

So nothing is gained it's a "zero sum"game.

Now if you could apply another force opposing, and cancelling out the countertorque, that would be another story.

Graham

[arthur]

you have built this exact design, eh?

with the double-pivot arms?

springs at both pivots?

8-weighted wheel?

what size wheel did you make and what did you use for weights? etc. - please explain.

I have reason to believe that if built correctly this wheel will work.

[graham]

Looking more closely mine was similar Arthur, not exactly the same. The spring are the problem they will exert a counter torque .
Show the springs in your drawing.

Graham

[arthur]

I was debating drawing the springs.
I decided to leave them out and keep the image simple.

you could use torsion springs, or cleverly placed extension springs at each joint.

like I've said, the idea is for the weight to spring forward from 12:00 -
- springs apply force until arm is fully open at 3:00.

this downward acceleration is favored by gravity.
back-torque is less than force gained.

I have compared this to picking up a rock and throwing it at the ground.

-- the rock WILL hit the ground with more force than was used to pick it up and throw it.
-this is why there is less back-torque.

it's not just the springs that will drive this wheel, although perhaps they are a crucial component.

I have calculated the torque of every weight position and found that this wheel is not balanced.

I believe this wheel must be built with a certain level of precision in order to work.

I also believe operation will be considerably smoother if two of these wheels are built into one.

again, the finished design is a wheel where 8 weights fall during rotation.
- the wheel position is reset every 1/8 turn.

[GadgetGeek]

the dark triangles represent 'stoppers' fixed to the wheel.

the levers' movement is restricted to a path between these 'stoppers'.

Sorry - I thought the triangles near the axle were attached to the arms. It seems simple enough to build - shouldn't take too long to get your answer.

[arthur]

It seems simple enough to build - shouldn't take too long to get your answer.

exactly.
I will wait and talk about it after I build it.
.....just thought I would share my design with you folks.

[Bessler007]

Thanks for sharing, Arthur.

I will wait and talk about it after I build it.
.....just thought I would share my design with you folks.

There is no source of energy to cause the first member of the articulate arm to advance faster than gravity particularly with a spring unloading, forcing it the other way. Even without the spring it's unlikely the arm would advance. I looked at that detail in simulation.

Since you disagree most think you should spend the time and energy to build it. That could be a good learning experience. I think you should examine more of the details of the model, maybe get a demo copy of wm2d. It is unreliable at times but it could save you some time, money and material.

Good luck.

gravity is a monstrous tyrannical nazi.

[Bessler007]

Another thought about this design:

The ratio of energy with no effect on the force of torque / total torque causing an energetic power of rotation....

...is to great of a value.

There is too much spurious motion in this design. In my opinion this is a fact. :)