Bessler's Wheel

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P-Motion
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

007,
I thought of testing that would be along the lines of the design.
Test a pendulum swing based on the actual path the extended weight and if it were in a retracted position would follow.
And at the bottom of the swing, have an instrument that can record the force of impact.
And if possible, but probably not necessary is how fast they both swing. Chances are, the wheel would still be spinning slower.
Also, it could be checked at different positions relative to a radial position on the ramp to see how much force would be exerted on the wheel.
Bessler007 wrote:maybe like this
:)
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

Ralph,
there is a difference between a pendulum and a ramp. But then, as I have mentioned, no one has shown a design with 4 arms and only one extending.
Yet many have said it has been tried. In other ways that is.
And do you know why I am not going to 8 arms ? The weight to torque ratio would probably be to big to overcome. Everyone seems to think more is better. Yet with only 4 arms, momentum would have a chance to develop. With 8 arms or even 6, it could be that work is always being performed which defeats the purpose before it begins.
I think I have mentioned that with an extension of 1" on an 18" arm, the torque ratio would be about 1" of torque acting on 72. At 1.5% of mass ratio, I think to small.
At 3%, may be possible. I am sure there are bearings that consume a smaller percentage of torque.
With a bearing that consumes 1% of force, then 2% would be for force generation.
But what you, like most people seem to forget is that just because an idea fails on its' first attempt does not mean it doesn't work. It may just need to be modified. This is where understanding all of the parameters comes into play.
No one had mentioned that the longer the arm on a pendulum, the more time it takes to swing. An observation everyone missed and would have something to do with this design.
Then the design can be analyzed on an engineering standard and not an "I told you so".
Because in reality, it is possible fro the swinging motion to be helping to develop momentum for most of the time it is extended.
From what you keep saying, you are not familiar with pendulums. I have one on my clock and it swings quite nicely. Maybe someone can explain to me where friction is stopping it.
I think this would be a good place for you to start with correcting me.


rlortie wrote:Here is a ramp design.

Each spoke and weight is made up of perf. flat bar and two roller blade wheels. Total weight of wheels and spokes is two pounds 7 ounces.

Each spoke is held in place by four pairs of flanged bearings. These are placed out near the perimeter for stability and maximum leverage for the MDF 3/4" disk they are attached to. Friction on the spokes is almost negligible. The bearing carriers may also be placed near the axle if desired. An internal ramp can be utilized by adding a cross bar mounted to the backer board.

The complete unit is four feet in diameter. The stationary rim/ramp is attached to a backer board that is adjustable in all 360 degrees of orientation. You can start and end the ramp at any point desired. You can adjust the stroke to any length of your choosing. you can add more weight if desired. Change the number of spokes ETC.

This is a universal test bed capable of performing every conceivable approach to a ramp design that I could imagine. None of them worked!

Edit: No attachment, told it is too big. It is in .jpg and I still have not learned how to change to a .gif. I will send it to anyone willing to reformat so that it can be posted here.
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by rlortie »

P-Motion,
I think this would be a good place for you to start with correcting me.
Warning you may regret opening this door, but seeing as how you have, here goes!

OK! here is my rebuttal; First I I want it understood this for the benefit of other new members and although it may sound personal, I do not imply as such.

I have the impression that you are more of a math geek or pencil pusher than a person who does not mind a little grease under the fingernails. You only absorb what you think is your approach. You avoid by speed reading pertinent data that does not fit your liking and respond by changing the subject to fit your thesis.
From what you keep saying, you are not familiar with pendulums.
You obviously have not done your home work. With a little editing of past threads you will find that my first topic thread upon joining this forum was about pendulums and connecting rod ratios. I have a Celtic pendulum hanging in my shop that has a five foot cross arm and a six foot rod and a five pound bob. Weights on the cross arm act as inertial dampeners and is interchangeable is size and distance from pivot. The driving mechanism is also adjustable in length and stroke. The pivot point can also be adjusted compensating for all three primary types of balance scales. Said pivot point may also be made to slide placing axis point in opposition or opposite amplitude apex. Telling me that I am not familiar with a pendulum is a very bad assumption on your part!
But what you, like most people seem to forget is that just because an idea fails on its' first attempt does not mean it doesn't work. It may just need to be modified. This is where understanding all of the parameters comes into play.
Boy! now you are really showing your self egomania. What the heck do you think I have been doing for the last 50 years. When I build a design I stay with it until I have exhausted every conceivable approach. The foundation of each concept is laid out to allow for future modifications, trial and error research.
No one had mentioned that the longer the arm on a pendulum, the more time it takes to swing. An observation everyone missed and would have something to do with this design.
Every one missed??? Did you sleep through history or basic physics classes. Or do you simply envision yourself as the founder of this fact.
I have one on my clock and it swings quite nicely. Maybe someone can explain to me where friction is stopping it.
Yes I imagine it does swing quite nicely, where as it is kept swinging by a small nudge from the escapement wheel and pawl. A pulse provided by an outside source such as a manual wound spring or weights hanging on a chain sprocket. If this small input per cycle is removed friction of the pivot point, air resistance and gravity will soon cease its function. Remember, a pendulum is in balance when static at the vertical position.

Galileo (1564-1642), Italian physicist and astronomer, who, with the German astronomer Johannes Kepler, initiated the scientific revolution that flowered in the work of the English physicist Sir Isaac Newton.

The principle of the pendulum was discovered by Italian physicist and astronomer Galileo, who established that the period for the back-and-forth oscillation of a pendulum of a given length remains the same, no matter how large its arc, or amplitude. (If the amplitude is too large, however, the period of the pendulum is dependent on the amplitude.) This phenomenon is called isochronism, and Galileo noted its possible applications in timekeeping. Because of the role played by gravity, however, the period of a pendulum is related to geographical location, because the strength of gravity varies as a function of latitude and elevation. For example, the period will be greater on a mountain than at sea level. Thus, the pendulum can be used to determine accurately the local acceleration of gravity.

"Pendulum," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 97 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1996 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by Bessler007 »

Jim,

The longer pendulum arm taking more time to swing equates to needing more energy as it is trying to catch the shorter radius of the wheel.

I do agree a longer arm would need more energy to catch the shorter rotation of the wheel in that lower quadrant. Where is this energy coming from?
P-Motion wrote:.....
No one had mentioned that the longer the arm on a pendulum, the more time it takes to swing. An observation everyone missed and would have something to do with this design
......
In so many words I did mention this.
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

007,
Chances are the pendulum would swing faster than the wheel would spin.

Jim
Иуыыдук007 wrote:Jim,

The longer pendulum arm taking more time to swing equates to needing more energy as it is trying to catch the shorter radius of the wheel.

I do agree a longer arm would need more energy to catch the shorter rotation of the wheel in that lower quadrant. Where is this energy coming from?
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by bluesgtr44 »

P-M...I know you think math is going to be the end-all of this problem. Look, there is going to be a point where just math is not going to be relative to the situation you are going to be presented with in a real build. I have not heard one mention of physics from you...and when this contraption of yours starts turning....the math is on the back burner and physics is going to step in...and it's going to step in pretty heavy!

Please, if it is the math....what will be the maximum speed of the device you are presenting (understanding you may be driving a flywheel)? what are the reaction forces going to be at this speed and what will you employ to deal with them? Air resistance? Friction forces? Can you factor in a good number of these factors and present an idea of what the potential output would be? Most of this is physics.....I just haven't seen you broach this aspect of your idea yet.

I really like your gumption! I mean, you seem pretty straight forward in what you are presenting....I just do not think what you have presented is any different than what has already been tried and documented in one form or another....but, I hope no matter the outcome, you learn/teach and continue on with the rest of us...wish you luck in the build and no matter what....we can all learn.


Steve
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

Steve,
Possibly the main reason I have not mentioned physics is there are two places where it has a noticeable influence.
One is in the pendulum motion. As someone has stated, trading height for width. I think this is where it would apply. Normally the potential a falling body can develop is based on the drop and not the distance travelled. With a pendulum motion, it would probably be a little slower than if only one weight were on the wheel. But since there would be 6 weights in a retracted position, the wheel should still spin slower. This would mean that as long as the weight rests against the wheel, it will exert the same force.
And the second place would be inertia. If the slot where the weight is, is angled at 5 degrees would allow the weight to release early. Also, inertia would be a force that would help to move the weight at or before 90 degrees allow for maximum period of extension.
As to the design, I believe it is how Bessler would have to have done it in 1712. A lot of the designs people pursue are more intricate than the materials of the time might have allowed. But in looking at the size of his wheel, doing a little trig can show where a potential for the necessary force to rotate such a heavy wheel. This is one reason why I mentioned 100 pound weights.
Most people could accept that 100 pounds of torque could rotate an 800 pound wheel.
But I only thought of this design about 2 months ago. So I think it is a very fast pace to have almost a complete design. I have figured out how Bessler probably held the weights. He would have had a rope attached to a bar. The bar catches the warped boards and retracts a weight.
When the weight is retracted, the bar can sit in a notch in the arm. Then when it has gone over the top, would come loose allowing the weight to roll out when it can. Pretty simple and probably worked pretty well.
It can be a bit of a strain to run all of this in my mind. And I have found that it does distract me from my personal life.
With some of the details, it might be better if people tried something to get a feel for the behavior.
In all the searches I have done, I have not come across a design like this. If it does work, I think it fits well with what Bessler said and what witnesses mentioned. Could explain why no one has done it since. It might be the only way.
The scaling of 4 ft. arms I've been using is to help illustrate some of the differences and relationships. And quite often, with no R&D, it's easier to get it right because there is more room for error.

Jim

bluesgtr44 wrote:007,
P-M...I know you think math is going to be the end-all of this problem. Look, there is going to be a point where just math is not going to be relative to the situation you are going to be presented with in a real build. I have not heard one mention of physics from you...and when this contraption of yours starts turning....the math is on the back burner and physics is going to step in...and it's going to step in pretty heavy!



Steve
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

Steve,
No one has yet to demonstrate a proven working pm/ou device. Rpm's would only be hypothetical. Getting one to work first would be a start.
And for what would make the design more efficient,no one has said.
But going from a 2 ft. center to a 4 ft. center doubles the torque and the drop of the weight while it is unimpeded.
But then, physics is based on math. 32f/s^2 is physics. But no one seems to know how to apply it to generating torque except for myself :)

Jim
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by Bessler007 »

Hello Jim,

It would be helpful if you could formalize a generalization of a principle.

I would be open to simulating the details of your idea if you could define the parameters you imagine are necessary. For instance does the ramp move with the wheel or is it stationary?. At what degree of rotation does the weight stop adding torque to the wheel and starts chasing it? What mechanism accomplishes these goals? Things like that.
A thousand failures do not prove the thing impossible, because a thousand persons may have taken a wrong direction.

Incessant failure does not, of itself, offer sufficient argument against the possibility of Perpetual Motion.
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by Bessler007 »

I meant to add an interesting tracking of a COM of a particular pendulum I spent the morning looking at. It moves from A through B to C. It is a strange one

Pendulums can be quite fascinating.
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

007,
The parameters for the ramp are for a weight that is centered at 24" and extends to 30". With it extended;
The ramp would be 7.07" to the right and down 7.07", or 10" at a 45 degree angle from the axis.
It would end at 9.36 below the axis. I am not sure if a straight line or if it had a radius would be better. Almost think it will come out close enough.
The weight would go from 21.21" to the right and down 21.21" and would move to 24" below the axis.
This would give the ramp an angle of about 22 degrees. It's a starting point.
It would be extended until it is under the axis. Basically, it would still be over-balanced until it is in balance with the opposing weight. So it could still be generating momentum.
It would come back to if the swing is faster or as fast as the wheel. It might be that there is a speed at which it works best. Not rpm wise but where it can function. This would mean that the load on it could be increased as the weights are increased.
And as you suggested, if the wheel spins to fast, then the weight on the pendulum would lose its' relative mass. Be almost as if it were on ramp.
So I guess timing is important.
It'd be cool to see what you could come up with and much appreciated.
With the weight extending in the top right quadrant would require something like that happening from 60 to 70 degrees of rotation and the lower weight retracting from 160 to 180 degrees. This way they would not over lap. If sufficient momentum is developed by the lower weight, then it would be a possibility.
The concern would go back to it exerting less force on the wheel by the mechanism acting on it. This is where the extension of the lower weight and the momentum generated by it being critical.

Jim
Bessler007 wrote:Hello Jim,

It would be helpful if you could formalize a generalization of a principle.

I would be open to simulating the details of your idea if you could define the parameters you imagine are necessary. For instance does the ramp move with the wheel or is it stationary?. At what degree of rotation does the weight stop adding torque to the wheel and starts chasing it? What mechanism accomplishes these goals? Things like that.
A thousand failures do not prove the thing impossible, because a thousand persons may have taken a wrong direction.

Incessant failure does not, of itself, offer sufficient argument against the possibility of Perpetual Motion.
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by bluesgtr44 »

Hey Jim...If it is any consolation as far as Bessler and the math are concerned.....
"...after such a tedious thousand-year-long search, an inventor was at hand who possessed the complete solution to this much-discussed problem. And there's more - not only did he have the solution to the abstract mathematical problem - long banished from the court of the professional mathematicians - he had an actual concrete realisation of the princiople in the form of a working model."
DT...pg.184-185...J. Collins pub.

He says he can prove....just as you say...in the math!


Steve
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

Steve,
Thanks for the support. After reading your post, I e-mailed a local reporter and basically blasted narrow minded people.
And even asked him why a mathematician would have a problem looking at a math problem.
Steve, at present, I find everything frustrating. Ever have an ideal you'd like to try but have to worry about other things instead ?
Could be its' not for me to do. Simply put, learning a new math is not what employers want. If I would have spent my time learning something else, then I'd have the money.
Maybe things work better that way. Either their is cooperation and things are given a chance, or its' best to leave them for another day (someone else).

Peace Out and hope all goes well
Jim
bluesgtr44 wrote:Hey Jim...If it is any consolation as far as Bessler and the math are concerned.....

Quote:
"...after such a tedious thousand-year-long search, an inventor was at hand who possessed the complete solution to this much-discussed problem. And there's more - not only did he have the solution to the abstract mathematical problem - long banished from the court of the professional mathematicians - he had an actual concrete realisation of the princiople in the form of a working model."


DT...pg.184-185...J. Collins pub.

He says he can prove....just as you say...in the math!


Steve
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re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by Fletcher »

Steve .. we all know that once a solution is found then the mathematicians will pour over it & quick smart have a mathematical proof, because it is of the physical world & therefore should be able to be explained in Physics & Math - the trick is understanding why & how it could work - I'm certain it will be explained in relatively easy math & terms we can all follow but not where mathematicians have looked.

A far as Bessler is concerned, I'm not at all certain that the quote means he could put up a convincing abstract mathematical argument to convince the professional mathematicians, though he could put up a working wheel - Bessler was reputed to be a 'fair' mathematician although over his life time he had a long time to work thru the math to support his working wheel but without anyone seeing his math there is no way of knowing whether it was accurate - it might have been rudimentary by professional standards.
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Re: re: Bessler's Wheel

Post by P-Motion »

Alan,
I think Bessler was smart. And as a result, he basically shoved the basis of his genius in everybody's face.
What better way to do it than advrtise everywhere, this is how I did it, can you figure it out ?
Double entendre s'il vous plait.
Can anyone in this forum come up with a suggestion for a way to retract a weight while generating momentum ?
I would love to hear it. Really. Then I could forget physics. Like gravity of Earth attracts Mars which simulates a pendulum type behavior. It was Bessler's knowledge of math that allowed him to "see" how this behavior mimiced a pendulum.
Of course, Newton published his En Principia in 1687 when young Johann was 7 years old. It's what he grew up under. Forgive him.
If y'all knew your history, you'd take a look at what Bessler had to work with. Then, they didn't know that light travewlled at 300 kps but did know that gravity accelerated. Not sure that last one mattered.
Heck, they didn't even know there was a gluon then let alone a muon. Go figure.
How did they think atoms stuck together ? Or could be split by varying the rate at which they were struck by neutrons through thin sheets of metallic elements ? I don't know. A hydrogen bomb is not that difficult to make.
What were we talking about ? Thought mechanical type behavior might rely more on physics than engineering.
AB Hammer wrote:P Motion

Since you seem to be working this one.

I just had a thought on the 11.15 ft wheel at Meiseburg. looking at the drawings pendulum and asking. Do you think the pendulum is an activator, a regulator, may be both or even just something to show movement to count the speed?
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