Is It Possible ?

[P-Motion]

Perhaps you miss the point?

I get the point. It could be a side effect of keeping all the parameters staright in my head.
About all claculations were done with at best a calculator. It is a bit of a strain.
Maybe that is why no one has done it since Bessler. It may be to demanding.
I do know I am much happier when I don't think about this. But then, I did say the reason Bessler was unhappy in life was because he did not walk away from this.
And those that forget the past are condemned to relive it. I have no need to be another Bessler :-)

[MrTim]

Perhaps the reason no one has been able to "solve" Bessler's wheel mathematically (or any 'perpetual motion' device, for that matter) is because not all the factors are known. If you are missing some of the needed equations (or parameters), then whatever 'solution' you come up with will be wrong. Hence, it will be thought "impossible".

a (+,-,*,/) ??? = wrong

If that is the approach you are taking, then you have a long, long walk ahead of you before you even find the correct path (if ever.)
May good fortune always be at your side, whichever path you choose....
;)

[rlortie]

MrTim,

I agree!!!!!

To debate the mathematics of a Bessler wheel is perpetual in itself. IMO it will never be done! To many variables, without knowing the mechanical configuration used to begin with, poltergeists will play there roll and weights will move in and out.

The weights seek equilibrium, but is it that the weights cannot find it or is it that the drum keeps moving it? Is the unit so balanced that all it takes is feather dancing or a poltergeist (wind or draft in an unglazed room) to set it in motion?

Was the first one-way wheel tied down to stop it from motion, or was it tied down to prevent motion from starting? Where and how is math relevant to such questions.

Do you see any mathematical reference in any eye witness's documents? Or were they conceived after the fact and even then on unknown speculations? Does Bessler record any mathematical notations? IIRC He said it was a gift from God! What is next, are we going to debate God on a mathematical level?

This is a good forum, but for what it is worth, to much time is being spent on debating math that cannot be proven or refuted.

Obviously we find ourselves in the same dilemma with the wheel itself. But what is the easier of the two? I say physical builds and trial and error, debating math on an unknown is futile and will never be simulated.

Ralph

[AB Hammer]

Greetings All

May I make a suggestion?

We use math for standard measurement of arms, weight, and leverage. Then we look at reaction test and possible counter balances. Then we look at possible forward movements and how to over come negative movements and paths. This is how a Blacksmith goes at it, and since it is what it is, the lessons of trial and error are our teacher.

[Jim_L]

It is interesting in this day and age how someone can find a way to say that math can not explain something.
That is what most people call Metaphysics.
>>This is a good forum, but for what it is worth, to much time is being spent on debating math that cannot be proven or refuted. <<
A test that can be done has been posted. You are the one that said it could not be done.
Are you afraid of something ? Or is it you don't understand math ?
I guess it is obvious Ralph that I don't think much of you or your opinion.
Yet, you woldn't know why the principle of a Trebuchet could work or why having an overhead ramp at 120 degrees from top would most likely work better than at 130 degrees.
Yet, if I left out the math, what would I be saying ? It would be a vague statement which it is probably one anyway if you can not understand relationships that are measured.

MrTim,

I agree!!!!!

To debate the mathematics of a Bessler wheel is perpetual in itself. IMO it will never be done! To many variables, without knowing the mechanical configuration used to begin with, poltergeists will play there roll and weights will move in and out.

The weights seek equilibrium, but is it that the weights cannot find it or is it that the drum keeps moving it? Is the unit so balanced that all it takes is feather dancing or a poltergeist (wind or draft in an unglazed room) to set it in motion?

Was the first one-way wheel tied down to stop it from motion, or was it tied down to prevent motion from starting? Where and how is math relevant to such questions.

Do you see any mathematical reference in any eye witness's documents? Or were they conceived after the fact and even then on unknown speculations? Does Bessler record any mathematical notations? IIRC He said it was a gift from God! What is next, are we going to debate God on a mathematical level?

This is a good forum, but for what it is worth, to much time is being spent on debating math that cannot be proven or refuted.

Obviously we find ourselves in the same dilemma with the wheel itself. But what is the easier of the two? I say physical builds and trial and error, debating math on an unknown is futile and will never be simulated.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Alan,

A well put statement! I for one ignore math other than reading a tape measure and the use of measuring instruments found in general wood and metal working. I hate math, and have a phobia about anything with equations since being a freshman in high school.

If I should need to know the circumference of a given circle for symmetrical division I simply look it up in a chart. I could care less about velocity squared and how fast something falls. I know it will fall, and if it turns a wheel in the process, all the better.

All this arguing about math giving the answer to Bessler's secret can best be answered with the following basic tools: Tape measure, Story stick, machinist and carpenter squares. compass/trammel, and a sharp pencil.

These are the basic tools seen laying on the desk in front of Bessler's picure where he is holding a set of dividers up to a globe! The rest of the required tools are shown hanging on the wall behind and to the his left.

By the way I just hit your green Icon on your rep-bar, which I feel is past due!

Ralph

[Jim_L]

Greetings All

May I make a suggestion?

We use math for standard measurement of arms, weight, and leverage. Then we look at reaction test and possible counter balances. Then we look at possible forward movements and how to over come negative movements and paths. This is how a Blacksmith goes at it, and since it is what it is, the lessons of trial and error are our teacher.

Alan,
It is intersting that the design I showed could be measured with a tape measure and a pencil, nothing more.
But I did mention that Bessler said he saw something in nature, and that is not in any drawing. I did mention a behavior I believe could have inspired him to consider one way of making his wheel.

[Jim_L]

Ralph,
Not sure why you chose a hobby like this. All engineering that I have heard of works to standards. This limits the variables.
But do you know what I am tired of ? People that are not willing to take the time to learn orr understand soemthing.
When I worked at Boeing, poeple would say I showed up at work hung over. What it was, was severe ear infections partly due to my hearing loss.
Yet I was the one going to community college and taking off hour training.
Yet what were they doing ? Nothing really. And that is why they did not like me. I was taking the time and doing somehting with it.
I think the same applies in here.
To try to understand a concept based on cause and effect can save a lot of work.
For example, take Alans' concept that he is working on.
These are some suggestions I have thought of that might help him. If not, that is okay. He does know what he is working on and I have only heard a few descriptions.

Hope you don't mind, but I have a thought or two on your design.
I am not sure the specifics you are trying so please bare with me.
On your catch for your weight, I do believe it is possible that if it is spring loaded, that a leveraged arm can open it to reduce loss of momentum.
Then when the weight is in position, a diffferent catch can hold it in place.
Then when it is in position to be "shot", the catch can be released. And if the spring is beneath what the weight is on, it would push upward which should have no effect on the spin of your wheel.

MrTim,

I agree!!!!!

To debate the mathematics of a Bessler wheel is perpetual in itself. IMO it will never be done! To many variables, without knowing the mechanical configuration used to begin with, poltergeists will play there roll and weights will move in and out.

The weights seek equilibrium, but is it that the weights cannot find it or is it that the drum keeps moving it? Is the unit so balanced that all it takes is feather dancing or a poltergeist (wind or draft in an unglazed room) to set it in motion?

Was the first one-way wheel tied down to stop it from motion, or was it tied down to prevent motion from starting? Where and how is math relevant to such questions.

Do you see any mathematical reference in any eye witness's documents? Or were they conceived after the fact and even then on unknown speculations? Does Bessler record any mathematical notations? IIRC He said it was a gift from God! What is next, are we going to debate God on a mathematical level?

This is a good forum, but for what it is worth, to much time is being spent on debating math that cannot be proven or refuted.

Obviously we find ourselves in the same dilemma with the wheel itself. But what is the easier of the two? I say physical builds and trial and error, debating math on an unknown is futile and will never be simulated.

Ralph

[AB Hammer]

Thanks for the green button Ralph.

Jim
I thank you for your suggestion, but I have about a dozen shooter designs. What I put on this wheel was what I felt would duplicate the sounds and actions of what was reported on Besslers wheel. But I do think I might need to cut out 2 sections so that only 8 hits per turn will happen. Even Bessler could have made a last moment decision and used less as well due to mabe the lack of available weights.

[Jim_L]

Jim
I thank you for your suggestion, but I have about a dozen shooter designs. What I put on this wheel was what I felt would duplicate the sounds and actions of what was reported on Besslers wheel. But I do think I might need to cut out 2 sections so that only 8 hits per turn will happen. Even Bessler could have made a last moment decision and used less as well due to mabe the lack of available weights.

Your welcome Alan. It will be interesting to see your wheel when you are finished with it. I hope it works to your delight.
I know with mine, I will wait until I feel like doing it. I know the math won't change as it is a fairly basic design. Of course, I think because I can see how it could work, like you, I will pay attention to detail better by doing it myself.
And I think that will be the best part. Building it and checking this or that out.

Jim

[ovyyus]

But do you know what I am tired of ? People that are not willing to take the time to learn orr understand soemthing.

Me too. I get really tired of people who aren't willing to learn better people skills. In my experience, those not willing to take the time to learn or understand basic social skills are often unhappy and lonely people who feel persecuted and misunderstood by what they see as an unfair world. Sounds familiar.

[Jim_L]

Me too. I get really tired of people who aren't willing to learn better people skills. In my experience, those not willing to take the time to learn or understand basic social skills are often unhappy and lonely people who feel persecuted and misunderstood by what they see as an unfair world. Sounds familiar.

Like Ralph said, my Bessler concept will not work because it has been tried. And he has a link to a hundred drawings. And not one is close.
There are your people skills.
Myself, I have no need toa rgue with people that have no point.
Sad to say, when I got ran over,my h&#1091;ad hit the ground between 40 and 50 mph. That will most likely cause me problems the rest of my life.
There is somehting Ralph can use to insult me :)) Helping you out here Ralph.
Next week I probably won't remember this. And I know you don't care. I won't either, I'll have forgotten. Thank God for head injuries. There is some good to them :))
What I do like is this is the third I will eb saying this: Bessler would have been a happy man had he walked away.
So I guess since I make everyone unhappy including myself, no better time than now to say good bye.

Do sveedaneeya &#1044;&#1086; &#1089;&#1074;&#1080;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;
&#1090;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1082;&#1086; &#1075;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1088;&#1103; &#1089; &#1085;&#1077;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084; &#1095;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1082;&#1086;&#1084;

[rlortie]

For those who are interested in seeing some of my wheel attempts:

A young man who is leaving for U. S. Navel training has been kind enough to assist me in setting up a web photo page ON his link. There will now be an icon on the bottom of this post.

I am currently attempting to put it together, There are two sections of it so far. pictures and reproductions I have collected. There are many more wheel designs that I cannot post as they are not mine. I will be adding text to existing and more as time goes by.

looking forward to the day I can open a forum page and not see those pretty words stating "Some users were ignored"

Ralph

[rlortie]

To Fletcher and ovyyus,

I commend you both for your diligence and understanding of the present situation. You are two valuable members that I would never wish to offend, I am glad to see that the problem is entrusted to good hands.

Although I cannot nor wish to see what is posted, I certainly can see the response!

Ralph

[debbie]

Yet I was the one going to community college and taking off hour training.
Yet what were they doing ? Nothing really. And that is why they did not like me.

Surely not ... could it have been something else?