Question for Bill

[graham]

Hi Bill, I've been meaning to ask you before but never got around to it. So here goes .
On your website "Orffyre. com" you have an animated drawing of MT18 under the heading "Speculation". No other drawings are shown, just MT18.
Now I was wondering why you chose that one over all the others. Was it for a particular reason?

I have always been drawn to MT18 and ideas based upon this arrangement because it seems to fit the external observations by eyewitnesses. If a way were found to overcome backtorque it might be very close to what Bessler actually did.

You have a great website, thanks.

Graham

[AB Hammer]

Yes Bill has a great web sight.

But I think you should look at this version that I have designed, or better said redesigned. It might answer some of your questions, as well as Bill's insight for any further ideas, we might get this one to work. I have ben talking with Ralph on this one, and he also think it is good for some more testing.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=5200

[ovyyus]

Hi Graham, I think an animated MT18 makes a pretty good "under construction" graphic. Also, it's a very simple overbalanced wheel design and it seems to fit many of the clues - but just like all the other MT designs it can not possibly work without the addition of a prime mover. IMO, finding Bessler's energy source will determine the design, not the other way around.

[Fletcher]

Bill .. I often use your web site coral draw renditions of Bessler's MT in combination with flicking thru the pages of John Collins MT [which has originals only] - I find yours much easier on the eye, clear & crisp, so thanks for your efforts.

Are you still working on producing your versions of the rest of the MT drawings ? - some of the originals are really hard to work out the detail so I can understand why it might still be 'under construction".

P.S. perhaps PM should stand for Prime Mover ?

[ovyyus]

Fletcher, my MT project is still under construction. As you can appreciate, it's a fairly time consuming project and time is not something I seem to have as much of lately. While I do intend to finish it, I must say that it's primary purpose was achieved when I made MT freely available to all Bessler researchers through www.orffyre.com Until I published my online version of MT 5 or 6 years ago, copies of this important document were difficult and expensive to obtain. I was hoping that by making it freely available to other researchers some smart cookie might have had a breakthrough before now. Luckily, I'm very patient :D

If 'PM' stands for Prime Mover, then I must be searching for PM too ;)

[rlortie]

Bill,

I am thinking it was six year ago! I do not expect you to remember,but very shortly after you opened, I was made aware of it, I communicated with you.

Cannot remember for sure but it seems like I talked with you either using MS messenger and or ICQ.

Without realizing that your collection was based strictly on Bessler, I offered to send you my collection to add. I should have done so anyway, as I have now lost the book which had 101 wheel designs in it. And Now the book is no longer available.

Oh well; they were all failures anyway! But then again they were good examples of how not to build a gravity wheel.

By the way, you forgot the "y" in your above web link! :0(

I already have a prime mover, its called a wife!

Ralph

[Fletcher]

Well I hope you do finish it Bill - many a time I've scratched my head over the years looking at the copies of Bessler's original woodcuts, both in JC's MT & on the wiki - [before orffyre.com I was unaware they even existed] - then I had to look at yours to get a clearer picture of the mechanical actions that you had managed to make some sense of.

I was kind of hoping you'd continue doing the hard yards & save me some eye strain & some thinking ;)

Probably the second great leap forward was when Bessler's comments about the first 56 drawing of MT became available in English.

I wonder if we should use the wiki page on MT to add comments beside drawings about what the possible action & purpose of the wheels [all or after 56] are about ? Since the wiki can be edited, it just might fill in a few gaps on a few other designs that seem unfinished or over simplified or just plain confusing to me ?

[bluesgtr44]

Well, since we have your attention, Bill...any idea why the numbering was scratched out after 104? What indicates or prompted the sequence that these were put in?


Steve

[ovyyus]

Hi Steve, I don't think the numbers were scratched out after MT104, rather they are presented as solid rectangular fill areas - the numbers hadn't yet been carved from that part of the print block.

Maybe at the time of printing his proof (MT) Bessler hadn't made up his mind about the exact illustration sequence after MT104. These number areas could have been easily finished at any time prior to publication. Perhaps finishing the printing block numbers wasn't a high priority without a publishing date.

If Bessler was interested in leaving behind a legacy in the form of MT then I think he would have payed particular attention to finishing it as soon as possible (who knows exactly when they die?). If so, then MT in its current form might be 'finished' for that purpose. Bessler seemed to loose interest in text descriptions after MT56, also in finishing the plate number sequencing after MT104. I wonder if his MT served it's primary purpose from MT01 to MT56 (and the toys page)?

[graham]

Hi Graham, I think an animated MT18 makes a pretty good "under construction" graphic. Also, it's a very simple overbalanced wheel design and it seems to fit many of the clues - but just like all the other MT designs it can not possibly work without the addition of a prime mover. IMO, finding Bessler's energy source will determine the design, not the other way around.

So you also believe in an unknown energy source . Fletcher has been talking about this for a while also . If this is the case then all of the MT drawings would be irrelevent I suppose since they all seem to be attempting to harness gravity in one way or another.

This unknown energy source would need to be enclosed within the wheel and be responsible for raising his weights "in a flash".
It sounds a lot like science fiction to me.

I'm not a believer in an unknown energy source so I'll keep looking for a loophole and hoping for an enlightening dream.

Graham

[scott]

I wonder if we should use the wiki page on MT to add comments beside drawings about what the possible action & purpose of the wheels [all or after 56] are about ?

We are already doing this Fletcher. There is a discussion page for each MT image. Some discussions have already started.
-Scott

[Fletcher]

To put the record straight there Graham - I've been at it, on & off, for about 10 years now [the last 4 here at the Besslerwheel.com forum].

Like everybody else I had a predilection for finding a loophole in conservative gravity - I carried that with me for years but could never find a way to bend gravity [or its associated effects derived from inertia] to my will - no great surprise there, thousands have tried over millennia & are still trying - I rationalized each failure as another 'near miss' to keep my spirits up in the quest [maybe someone will actually succeed but statistically the possibility is very low].

After about a year here I had read just about all I could ingest about OOB wheels [mostly from the great discussions here & the linked sites, especially the 'museum of unworkable devices'] - about that time I reached a point where without an example in nature to follow, showing that gravity may not be conservative in some circumstances, then I could not go any further in that direction N.B. imo, most if not all technologies have been founded on examples from nature. It seemed that Bessler's wheel must also have some part of it also able to be demonstrated in nature [later I discovered Bessler actually says so].

I digress - by the time I caught up with Bill here at the forum he was already on a well beaten path - looking for an extra energy source & had settled on thermal energy scavenged from the wheel environment - I had [& still have] no idea how to practically achieve that, but I resonated with his sentiments that Bessler's wheel was a natural phenomena that didn't break the law of conservation of energy or entropy vis-a-vis it must be an open system ultimately 'fed' by the sun & its effects on temperature here on earth [like every other earthly system of gradients can be traced back to the suns influence].

At times, on this board, his laconic statements seemed [still seem] like the 'complete voice of reasonableness & sanity' in an otherwise insane quest, & I like the balance that brings to the discussions.

But just to add - one of the convincing arguments to me about why it must be an open energy system that used an external environmental energy supply, are the words by Bessler, where he says [paraphrased] that once the principle was found that the device didn't have to be totally precise [an ounce here of there didn't make a jot of difference to its performance] - that indicates to me that there was plenty of surplus energy available for work [after internal frictions & windage were accounted for] & that the internal working [where the Prime Mover force was generated] was more than able to cope with a wheel where weights weren't perfectly balanced or symmetrical, to get the wheel turning from a standing start - so the force was robust & not a small 'anomaly of physics' - if it were a large 'anomaly of physics' [which would be required to create a large shift in position of weights to derive that much over-balance torque & return everything to its full starting potential energy each cycle] then the effect that caused that would have been observed & the mathematicians have identified, isolated & accounted for it].

P.S. thanks Scott - I make make some comments also then.

[ovyyus]

So you also believe in an unknown energy source ...

I think Bessler's energy source definitely is unknown.

Those proposing that it's possible to extract energy from gravity and/or inertia obviously can't provide a single demonstration in their own support. On the other hand, we see thermal energy at work everywhere around us. Which is science fiction?

I think it's possible that a clever and resourceful man might see a freely available energy source as a legitimate solution to his long and fruitless years of attempting the overbalanced wheel. Perhaps Bessler didn't invent some clever lever, perhaps his invention had more to do with applying his newly discovered prime mover to old gravity wheel designs.

[bluesgtr44]

With me....it is the quick acceleration, had to be tied off (one directional), exceptional velocity...smooth running...that throws the wrench in it. I can't see how a thermal input can create that "on demand"....CF has to be started to first to provide any input...same with aero dynamic lift.

How in the heck was he able to maintain a constant OOB effect, I'll call it...from zero. I find this astounding! It had been mentioned, I believe by Tueber, that the start and stop was always very consistent.

Another thing....trying to separate the two effects. He states that the wheel, moves with the weights...and "gains force from their own swinging/motion".....and then yet....."the velocity is proportional to these weights and the diameter of the wheel." Hmmmmm....

Ahhh....more questions than hair left to pull out! Thanks for the info,Bill.


Steve

[docfeelsgood]

for what its worth , in my opinion only , and ya'll know how i am with YARNS . probobly aint worth much !!! but i cannot dissagree with Johann that the weights and the unique path they followed ARE the prime mover !! and gain force by their own swinging . however i dont think the wheel will run without the lever system !! the lever system is simple in a lot of respects but what it accomplished was a lot more complex . the levers were activated by a infamous storksbill . as far as the weight path is concerned , i notice in JC's book i believe he mentions Johann took a hankering to study hebrew and learned to read and write it . a drawing on the toy page & the star of david share some similarities . just my opinion , pay it no mind . sorry for rudely interrupting . Doc.