Are you optimistic ?

[bluesgtr44]

Let's go with the results. He had one directional wheels that had to be tied off. Eye witness reports claim they revolved in excess of 50 rpm..."One could almost set the time by the revolution...", and still had excess power.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. This system has to be a heavy duty "leading" system...not a "lagging" system. For this type of system to be able to maintain a steady rate of rotation and perform work....it has to be a hard leading system....thus, it should be regulated (held back) to maintain it's minimum, not it's maximum. If you release the main disk, it revolves in a pre-determined direction..."with considerable force and rapidity"... So.......how much and where is it getting it?

From a dead stand still, tie the load to the axle and then let the wheel go...away it went....if I am wrong here, correct me...it would even act as a governor while lowering the load.

If this is so....this was a really hard "leading" system...not a "lagging" system.


Steve

[barksalot]

Yes I am optimistic.

[rlortie]

Stewart,

A turning point for me was teaming up with Ed, and we've made more progress working together than we would have apart. If you're able to team up with someone I would strongly recommend it as it really helps to talk to someone like-minded and bounce ideas around. I know there are others who have teamed up this way and have also said it works well, such as Fletcher & Rainer, and Ralph & Preston.

A point well worth pointing out. A partner to bounce your thoughts off of can lead to innovative thinking and bring new ideas/concepts simply through conversational discussions. I refer to it as "eclectic" thinking! The merging or best of more than one idea.

It is publicly known that I have partnered with Preston, James kelly, Victor and a couple of others that have come and gone. This is not to say there is not more who shall by choice remain anonymous.

When being on more than one team, one must take heed to confidentiality agreements. never use one design to augment another or share without permission of the submitter. Some times I request that a third party be included simply because of man hour shortage. It is not uncommon for me to be researching a design and enjoy the benefits of an associate working on another using the same basic concept but in a different fabrication mode or structural design.

An example of this in now quite publicly known. Preston and I have spent many hours on Doc's design. I believe the outer wheel is the driver, while Preston is adamant that it is the inner. At the same time we assisted each other in our pursuit. Material sourcing, shop short cuts and fabrication methods flowed freely.

Frequent communication simply to chat and discuss progress and/ or pros and cons almost always bears new thoughts or getting the V-8 juice slap in the face! (Wow! why didn't I think of that!)

What can become frustrating is remembering surnames from profile names. More that once I have inadvertently sent posts to the wrong member.

Ralph

[AB Hammer]

Here is a little change of thought of Besslers intent with the MTs

I feel he is showing these non workers for us to figure out how to repair them to work. What changes will we have to do to make them work, or what combinations and blends of ideas. That is the approach that I have taken. Before I became a blacksmith/armourer I was a auto mechanic, and after my time in the Coast Guard, I was a DJ, then I did glass repair, then a vacumcleaner repair man, specializing with Rainbow. So I tend to look at Bessler's MTs as a repair and the mind is the source for the parts and the MTs is the junkyard to look through incase you needed used parts. Also the writings as the reports on how it is supose to run.

This may be just how my mind works for the MTs, but may be it will help others as well.

[coylo]

AB Hammer wrote....

Here is a little change of thought of Besslers intent with the MTs

I feel he is showing these non workers for us to figure out how to repair them to work. What changes will we have to do to make them work, or what combinations and blends of ideas.

I think with MT he is showing us deliberate failures, safe and so far gone from his working breakthrough. It's safe for him to show us these designs because they are ideas that everyone will most likely cover anyway. He's saying with MT...."hey look, I've been down this road before, you're gonna have to get smarter than this!"

Just my opinion....

[John Collins]

Hi Graham, you wrote

Hi John, where have you been hiding?

I come here every day to read the posts but I'm trying to resist the urge to comment! I'm busy earning some extra money working for my old employer and that leaves little time for all the other things I'm trying to do.

I'm trying to finish the book, build a model of Bessler's wheel that works (aren't we all!) and write out my decoded stuff and post it on my web site. Don't go there yet because its not up yet and anyway there is a proviso.

I have a dilemma. , I think I've decoded enough to understand the principle behind Bessler's wheel and I'm trying to find the time to build it. But because someone else might get there first, I'm writing out the full explanation and I intend to encode it again and post it on my web site. In theory that should provide evidence that I did know the answer even if someone else actually makes a working model before me. At some stage I'll provide the method for decoding what is there.

I have a hard time resisting the temptation to give vague clues to help, but as Bessler said one word might reveal my secret.

I'm sure there are many here who will disapprove my plans but I hope they will forgive me because if I don't succeed in making the model work I will be publishing all details in my book and I intend this forum should know all, well before publishing date. Then you will all be able to have a go.

John

[graham]

Thanks for getting back John. Really looking forward to the new book, maybe it'll be the "breakthrough" we're all looking for.

Don't overdo the work, remember you're not getting any younger.

Graham

[AB Hammer]

coylo

I think with MT he is showing us deliberate failures, safe and so far gone from his working breakthrough. It's safe for him to show us these designs because they are ideas that everyone will most likely cover anyway. He's saying with MT...."hey look, I've been down this road before, you're gonna have to get smarter than this!"

I believe you missed my intent, for if you can solve Besslers secret, you would be able to alter and repaid allot of the MTs. This is what I believe the MTs where meant for, not to use as is.

John Collins

I am looking forward to your new book

[Bessler007]

If Adam did not have a pecker, where would we be?

Point being: If you sometimes look at things in opposition to the normal thinking you may surprise yourself!

Ralph

Well that would be a horse of a different color. Or would it be? My original point was if there weren't a difference in equipment the species wouldn't have propagated. So I'd conclude that although it is a difference it is one without significance.

We are after all looking for a difference in force that is significant.

Gravity was not considered to fall into the category of an outside agent back then, even though today it clearly does, hence Bessler's wheel would not be a true PM today.

Stewart

I have a different opinion, Stewart. I'm of the opinion the mathematical description of the force of gravity advocated by Newton clearly explains one of the components of that universal attraction of gravity within a wheel is outside that wheel. Namely the earth. It is the 2nd mass.

The problem with the gradient of gravity as the centers of masses come together between the weights in a wheel and the earth is there doesn't exist a significant difference.

If, for example, John Collins were to drop a shoe where he is and Jim Mitch would drop one where he is, we have the equipment to measure the difference in trajectory. One question is, 'When will Mr. Collins drop the shoe?' :) That measurement could happen using the gps readily available to the average Joe.

Now if you wanted to measure the difference in gravitational attraction between Mr. Collins dropping the shoe from over his head and compare that to the attraction of him dropping it from his waist special equipment would be needed. It's being done in universities with laser. The gradient of gravity over such a short range is much harder to measure compared to the angle of trajectories with an ocean between them.

The differences, Stewart, in barometric pressures over time can be captured and in those clearly outside the device differences there exists the energy to drive a clock. The constant supply of mass to a water wheel forcing it to turn is clearly outside the wheel yet it's a perpetual supply of energy in the form of it moving from a higher level to a lower one. There is the difference.

The difference in those two sources of energy, which are clearly outside the device, and gravity, which Newton mathematically described as being outside the device, is there is a significant difference. With gravity there isn't this major difference over such a short range between two masses with gigantic differences in their respective masses.

Comparative analysis is a good tool for thinking but it's essential to compare facts. Conclusions drawn from opinion are nothing more than another opinion. You have to begin with facts to arrive at anything that might resemble reality.

I'd like to revisit Fletcher's definition of perpetual motion as it is today:

Todays Dictionary Definition :

Perpetual Motion : n the hypothetical continuous operation of an isolated machine without the introduction of energy from an external force. [underlining mine]

So shall we examine this meaning to arrive at some sense of how physicists define perpetual motion today? Nope. There's no point. A red flag comes up immediately from the term ' Todays Dictionary Definition'. There is no such animal. Another red flag is seen in the meaning, that the energy of the device is attributable to an external force. We've known since Newton the force of gravity was external to the wheel.

So to come full circle back to the topic at hand when Graham asked:

Do you believe that as a group , we are getting closer to the goal of rediscovering Besslers invention ? ...
Graham

I would say, 'no.' The stakes in this game are very high. At issue are some of the fundamental ideas in physics. If it is possible to make something of the near conservative force of gravity over a gradient so slight they need lasers to measure it, physics text books will need to be rewritten. This is not my opinion. This is a fact.

The 'heavyweights' of the forum are clear they expect remuneration from their efforts. I can't disagree with that motivation but I do disagree with shrouding it with the delusion this solution is a group effort. I don't have any such delusions and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone else.

So, back to the shoes and their dropping. When?

[Bessler007]

....
What was needed was to go back to the drawing board with a radical new approach to .....
...an imbalanced torque driven OoB wheel. Which is what I 'believe' he achieved. This would adhere to Jim's classical PM definition. I tend to lean more to this mere 'hunch', than Bill's highly plausible alternative.
This is how my stubborn, ignorant mind has settled this issue of those two contradictory statements.

Hello coylo,

I would be the last person on earth to force a different reasoning on your stubborn, ignorant mind but I don't mind describing an alternative view. :) Without objection here it is.

The idea you term 'a radical new approach' and describe as 'an imbalanced torque driven OoB' over looks the idea that with an imbalance of weight comes a difference in torque. The terms 'imbalance of torque' and 'imbalance of weight' are different ways to say the same thing.

Switching gears I'd like to talk about the ludicrous notion of using any form of energy to cause an over balanced wheel to be more productive.

Don't you suppose if that were the case we would make windmills or water wheels of that design? If it were a viable solution to increasing the efficiency of energy production wouldn't some example of it exist on a world where we've actually left the bounds of atmosphere and lived to tell about it? I would think so.

That solution isn't highly plausible. It isn't even plausible. Ludicrous notion is a more apt description.

[coylo]

I meant.... he found a radical new approach, as a solution to a working wheel, which is an OoB design. 'An imbalanced torque driven OoB' is not the name I have given to the 'radical new approach'. I used the word 'torque' out of context. Sorry for the confusion.

That solution isn't highly plausible. It isn't even plausible. Ludicrous notion is a more apt description.

It's the challenge of building an OoB wheel that draws me here, to do something that is said ... can't be done!
For the people that think otherwise, I don't know why they bother to come and post here?
- A wheel that operates by an external energy source such air pressure or heat..... I'd rather stay in bed!

[Bessler007]

coylo,

I was about to post when I noticed your answer. For what it's worth I think people understand torques can be any where on the wheel other than at the axle. I've been considering that for a while also. What I over looked in your idea was 'using torque to drive the imbalance'.

I immediately looked at it from the perspective of 'torque at the axle.' I'm sure you didn't use 'torque' out of context but you might have said more than you wanted to. That cat's out of the bag. I'm not sure if it's ever been mentioned before on the forum but I am sure people have considered it.

Another idea of making forces that have a difference is to use a mass that rests on two different stops 180 degrees apart. Every 1/2 cycle the force is present on a stop then in the next 1/2 cycle it isn't. That would be something like a dual-state logic over a full cycle. There might not be much of a difference there either. It could be used to let the wheel know when it's upside down or not.

In a classical physics analysis of the idea of using a difference in torque to drive the out of balance the answer would be as the drivers fall or rise relative to the rotation at the axle they'll produce energy that is equal (less the losses) over the entire rotation. I do wonder if that's the case.

[Oxygon]

After 15+ years or so...

Its really a roller coaster ride...

I have at least five or so ideas that work on paper

I can't build worth a damn, even if they did work...

it would only be enough to disprove the impossibility

I would be willing to settle for that.

...It keeps me going

[ovyyus]

...for if you can solve Besslers secret, you would be able to alter and repaid allot of the MTs.

I tend to agree. In MT Bessler hints at application of a prime mover (an energy source) to known designs. MT shows us everything except his energy source - his secret.

[Bessler007]

poppycock.