Mr. Bessler's power source

[Jim Williams]

If it's possible to invent a time machine that goes into the past, doesn't that mean it's already been done?

[WaltzCee]

if the past the time machine has come to is at the present or before, yes. Otherwise, no.

[Jim Williams]

If it's possible to invent a time machine that can go into the past...

[winkle]

i ask this before and did not get an answer so will try again

if we had a working wheel on earth using gravity to cause motion

and

if we had a working wheel in a ship spinning in space and the wheel were using artificial gravity to cause motion

is it true that

a working gravity wheel would destroy the idea of both CF and gravity being conservative forces

[rlortie]

Winkle,
"IMO" CF is not a conservative force, it is a fictional force created by a force applied to a mass moving in a radial path.

Gravity is considered "conservative" and therefore not unlike an applied pressure such as springs which will create the same effect. like gravity the springs must never loose their tension or compression.

A large wheel spinning in space will create CF on the inside of the outer rim, it being the centripetal force. Only you and any free mass will be effected by it.

question: Would such a wheel that is powered by gravity work in space driven by maintained spring pressure? I think not as the springs have no reference to push against. One would need multiple wheels creating a common "back torque connecting point.

Always wondered about those science fiction movies showing an orbiting space station turning while the central hub stays reletive stationary. How do they do that? Remove the stabilizing propeller from a helicopter and it will not do that!

Ralph

[winkle]

that's all quite informational but my question was about CF as artificial gravity and normal gravity

[jim_mich]

Winkle, CF can be used to simulate a gravity environment on a spinning space station, but the simulated gravity will not act like real gravity. For instance, unless the space station is very very large the simulated gravity would be noticeably less as you move upward (toward the center) within the station and visa versa. If you were to throw a ball then its trajectory path will seem very unusual.

A rotating PM wheel on a space station would work differently than on the Earth. Each weight as it "falls" within a PM wheel on a rotating space station will have what would appear to be a curved trajectory path rather than a straight line like on Earth.

So the question then becomes whether it would work in both situations, for it definitely would not work exactly the same since the weights will not "fall" the same. For instance, if you were to throw a ball backward at the same speed that the station rotates then the ball would sit still in space while the station rotates around. You would need to duck else the ball will hit you from the rear next time around. (Actually you would be the one moving so you would hit the ball, rather than the ball hitting you.)


Of course I maintain that gravity will never turn a PM wheel, but instead a true PM wheel would be turned by harnessing complex inertial reactions, which are under certain condition called CF. As such a PM wheel could drive itself purely by the impulse of the moving weights. Or the impulse could lift weights and then the falling weights could drive the wheel.

If a PM wheel were to be installed on a space station then it would need to be of the type that uses only impulse to drive the wheel. The artificial gravity (station rotation) might cause it problems so it would need to be located so that it does not move with the station and does not make use of the artificial gravity. In order to use any torque from the wheel you would need a second wheel rotating in the opposite direction. Then connect a generator (or whatever) between the two wheels so the armature will turn one direction while the stator turns the other direction. Otherwise the torque between the wheel and the station would cause the station to change speed.

Winkle, I don't know if this helps answer your question.

[wikiwheel]

"Of course I maintain that gravity will never turn a PM wheel, but instead a true PM wheel would be turned by harnessing complex inertial reactions, which are under certain condition called CF. As such a PM wheel could drive itself purely by the impulse of the moving weights. Or the impulse could lift weights and then the falling weights could drive the wheel." JimMich



I think it does run on gravity, doesn't violate the laws of motion nor the 2nd Law.

[winkle]

jim_mich
if there were such a thing as a working gravity wheel
and
if there were a space station where it could be mounted
then it would have to be mounted on an outer wall with the bottom facing out in a vertical mounting
not the floor
seems to me it would then work much like it would sitting on the earth

is this thinking correct

if not why

[AB Hammer]

Yes you would have to mount them to an outer wall.
But you would have to have 3 or 4 of them. For they would have a force in them selves and you would have to balance the ship to work with them "counter balance".

I agree they would not move the same but they would move simular due to there boundaries, and it might even work better.

[jim_mich]

Winkle, in the first part of my previous posting I answered your question. Maybe I didn't word it in a way for you to understand, so I'll try again. Imagine a PM wheel resting on the floor of the rotating space station, which is in reality the outer rim of the round station. You can stand next to the PM wheel because the CF keeps you pinned to the rim/floor. Now imagine the PM wheel is set in motion to turn the same direction as the station, say both turn CW. Suppose that the rim velocity of the station is the same velocity as the weights.

As a weight rotates across the top of the wheel it is no longer moving forward. The station moves one way and the weight moves the other way relative to the station, but the weight ends up not moving relative to real-space, so there is no CF.

When the weight rotates across the bottom of the wheel it is moving in the same direction as the space station so the weight's real-space speed is twice that of the station making the CF four times normal pushing down (outward) on the weight.

This illustrates how there is a significant difference between real gravity and simulated gravity on a space station. This difference makes a PM wheel on Earth act differently than a PM wheel on a space station.

Whether this difference hinders a PM wheel from working or helps it to work better would depend entirely on the working principle of the PM wheel.

[winkle]

jim_mich

this is what i had written

if there were a space station where it could be mounted
then it would have to be mounted on an outer wall with the bottom facing out in a vertical mounting

as seen below

one in agreement and one in disagreement

anyone else have an opinion about this ?

just to clarify my question

if there were gravity wheel can the wheel turn in the space ship

if the gravity wheel does turn in the space ship does CF become a non conservative force /

Alan

i agree with what you said it would require some forces to be dealt with

[Fletcher]

My 2 pesos .. If you up the scale of the thinking so that you imagine your rotating space ship to be a very large diameter [so that there was no discernable difference in the 'gravity force gradient' experienced at a mans head or feet then it would be a reasonable approximation of real gravity gradient - if you have read Arthur C Clarke's "Rama" series or his other books he often uses this concept of interstellar intergenerational space travel & city's within the 'space ship' - he also once IIRC postulated an artificial ring around a sun with land masses & people living on the inside surface.

The point is, that for all intensive purposes, you could not tell the difference between the CF induced gravity & real gravity form a mass beneath your feet - so IMO, in this situation a gravity wheel [if it could work at all] would work in both situations regardless of orientation - if you think otherwise then you are forced to think about the diminishing scale until it won't work, which would mean that artificial CF induced gravity would not be conservative in all instances.

For some reason I find it easier to plainly see the conservative forces of a rotating CF induced gravity as opposed to an earth bound one - JMO's.

[Jim Williams]

My adled wits wish to ask: if the gravity wheel was not mounted, but was in the exact gravitational center of the spaceship so only the gravitational force of the mass of the spaceship itself was pulling on the wheel, over a long period of time eventually the wheel would be pulled in such a direction that it would attach itself to the spaceship. That's since the spaceship would be of an irregular shape and mass attracting mass amounts would slightly different in different directions and positions of the wheel within the spacecraft.

But say the spacecraft's mass was perfectly balanced, then the wheel would still be pulled to hit the spacecraft as the pull of gravity from all other masses in the universe would ever so slightly be different in their attraction to the spacecraft itself and the wheel alone. To an outside observer with an unlimited amount of time available would the wheel moving towards the spacecraft constitute work? Yes. Would the observer be correct? No. Gravity would still be conservative in all its different directions all at once. Why after the Big Bang did the universe form in irregular shapes? Is that from some outside force preventing it from being perfectly symetrical. I don't think so. I hope this in range of winkle's question.

[jim_mich]

Winkle, if you place a rotating wheel as you show then you will encounter the gyroscopic effect. This will cause the wheel to exert a twisting force. If you prevent the wheel from twisting then it consumes energy and slows down and also slows down the space station. Of course if it's a working PM wheel then I guess it would not be important.

Fletcher, a very large space station would act very much like real gravity, but would require a very high velocity. For instance, a space station the size of the Earth would require a speed 17.06 faster than the Earth's normally rotational velocity to produce CF equal to one Earth gravity.