So sue me.

[Jon J Hutton]

Here is an interesting thought.

A person is claiming on the internet to have a working wheel, but does not want to give out the details or make it public. You suspect fraud but can not prove it. Finally after investing and spending much time and some money trying to disprove him you find out he probably does have a working wheel. If this guy wants to take the Bessler route today it would be very difficult to do so. Simply take him to court on ground of fraud and and make him prove his machine. If he denies it you win the settlement. If he has to prove it....the world suddenly becomes a better place and you recoupe your losses from cheaper bills.

How could you protect yourself from someone taking these measures against you.

JJH

P.S. I would never do this but if it happened in Besslers time, history could repeat itself.

[evgwheel]

As long as he/she doesn’t ask for any money or investments, who cares? I have six working wheels in my garage and I just sit there, look and think how clever I am. I just don’t want to share them and my brilliance with anyone. No fraud intended.

[Dave Roberts]

That would be a devious thing to do. You may have invested money trying to prove him fake but if he has not taken any actual money, I don't think it would stand up in court and you may be countersued to pay his attorney fees.
On the other hand, if he took money as an investment, you probably have a case. If he is a fraud, and has little assets, you still lose. You can call him a fake and a liar which only gives him more publicity.

I am not a lawyer, just my opinion.

BTW, from previous threads, I was against patents but have had a change of heart and have to agree that a good patent lawyer is absolutely necessary.

[MrTim]

Be sure to read the fine print in the prospectus, especially the part where it says you're investing the money "at your own risk". Case dismissed....

[RIPPERTON]

You would never get a working wheel patented.
Patent offices are government offices dont forget, or at least connected to the government, and the govt is connected to energy companies.
They would make sure you wouldnt even get to prove your concept by simply drowning you in a hail of negative press and make you look like a nutjob.
I think they are well prepared for the free energy evolution and will try to hold it off for as long as possible.
Go around the authorities. Dont let them know untill its way too late and they cant do a thing about it. Get your friends to help you by keeping it quite. Manufacture a dozen of them and set them up in their garages as generators.
Even act dumb when the electricity company starts getting curious about how much energy you are spewing into the grid.
Then when you have your own free energy mini network, release the design on YOUTUBE.
I dont want a patent, I want a bronze statue.

[jim_mich]

Here we go again.

Would you own a home without a deed? If someone moves into your house then what gives you the right to evict the scum-bag? It's that little piece of paper from the government that says that you are the current owner of your home.

Would you own a car without a title? If someone jumps into your car and drives off with it then what gives you the right to have him/her convicted of car theft? It's that little piece of paper that says you are the owner.

Why would you not obtain the little piece of government paper that says the idea that you thought up belongs to you? If you fail to get that piece of paper then I guarantee you someone else with a lot of money will see your idea and get government papers saying that they own your idea. They will then prevent everyone from using your idea. Only a wheel made exactly like your original will be free to be built. They will control all improvement and all alternate designs. That is the way the system works.

A much better route to take is when you have a working model, get a good patent agent or attorney and file a very good well written application that covers the method or principle behind why your wheel works. Then as soon as the patent is filed you go public with the idea and have a number of working models on display around the world.

This is my 'PLAN'... (I posted this a while back.)




Edit: removed a residual "[/quote]"

[RIPPERTON]

Here we go again

??? whats that about ??
If God gifted someone the universal genius to invent PM I dont think it would be for the purpose of self enrichment.
Match that genius with your own magnanimity.
As soon as a working wheel is viewed in public, its unpatentable anywhere in the world, no patent office will touch it.
As soon as you have a patent, the govt has a handle on you.
Go read about Tom Ogle who wanted to change the world but thought he had to ask the Govt first. PFFT.....naive.
What are you gonna do if you dont have millions from the royalties ? die of starvation ? Youd make millions just from the interviews just youd make it a lot quicker than through a patent.

[jim_mich]

"Here we go again" means that most every newbie comes here with a bunch of false conceptions about patents.

As soon as a working wheel is viewed in public, its unpatentable anywhere in the world, no patent office will touch it.

This is an absolute false statement! In the USA you can show the patent in public and still legally file for a patent up to 1 day short of a year later, but you won't be able to get a patent in other countries that have first to file patent laws. If you have filed an application then you can show your wheel to the world and still get a patent in the USA and also later in other countries that the USA has patent treaties with.

Let me put this very clear so that you understand it. If you do not patent an idea then everyone can make, sell and use your exact idea. But anyone can make a small improvement and get a patent on the improvement and then keep others from using the improvement. Big corporations with deep pockets will lock up every conceivable variation. Only your original exact design is then freely usable. Of course this was not your intent when you tried to let the world have your idea. What you should do is patent the method of how the wheel works. This should make it darn near impossible for someone to design around. Then after the patent issues, if you so desire, you can give the idea away to the world.

So let me make this perfectly clear. You can't give away what you don't own. So first make sure you own the idea and get full title to it. Then you have the option to give it away, if that is your desire.

[GraViTaR]

You would never get a working wheel patented.
Patent offices are government offices dont forget, or at least connected to the government, and the govt is connected to energy companies.
They would make sure you wouldnt even get to prove your concept by simply drowning you in a hail of negative press and make you look like a nutjob.
I think they are well prepared for the free energy evolution and will try to hold it off for as long as possible.
Go around the authorities. Dont let them know untill its way too late and they cant do a thing about it. Get your friends to help you by keeping it quite. Manufacture a dozen of them and set them up in their garages as generators.
Even act dumb when the electricity company starts getting curious about how much energy you are spewing into the grid.
Then when you have your own free energy mini network, release the design on YOUTUBE.
I dont want a patent, I want a bronze statue.

Yes!! This is EXACTLY how this must be done!

Secretly spread the technology amongst friends, relatives, and neighbors so by the time they find out, it's too late to do anything about it.

This is war, and we have to fight it guerrilla-style.

This isn't about making a ton of money on a great invention. It's about freeing mankind from the shackles of the energy barons.

[GraViTaR]

So let me make this perfectly clear. You can't give away what you don't own. So first make sure you own the idea and get full title to it. Then you have the option to give it away, if that is your desire.

You can give away anything you want. You can't SELL what you don't own.

[DrWhat]

In retrospect, once you "discover" the wheel you will find that it the evidence is right there in front of you via the Bessler clues.

The issue will be "you weren't the first, Bessler was", and then legal contestations will begin: the invention although now clearly first discovered or created by Bessler will be argued by you as "not being obvious", "not in the public arena", "hidden", hence patentable, yet others will still fight in court saying "but the evidence is now clearly there... you weren't the first". "Why should you own the idea. So what if you discovered it again. You must have found it in the Bessler writings etc".

This will be your biggest battle, fighting to defend your ownership of the principle.

You will find that ultimately you will give up, with not enough funds to contest, and you will free the invention to the world, getting your due recognition, but losing control of Bessler's wheel. Your name will eventually fade as "Bessler's Wheel" will be the only name remembered. But you will remain proud, that you freed the beast!

Even relatives will pop out of the woodwork claiming it belongs the them, the Bessler family.

Be prepared for a drawn out battle!

[RIPPERTON]

If you rediscover and recreate Besslers wheel exactly right down to the last little nail and bit of wood and steel, it would be sheer coincidence. Anyone claiming your wheel is actually Besslers wheel would have to prove it to 100 % and thats impossible because in the 7000 year history of mankind only 2 people have ever seen the insides of a PM wheel and theres no documentation of the design.
You can suggest similarities and likenesses but thats not good enough in a legal situation.

[evgwheel]

DrWhat wrote:

Your name will eventually fade as "Bessler's Wheel" will be the only name remembered.

I would think that it is hard to connect Bessler with any working wheel invented in the present time. There are many people alive and dead who have claimed to have invented a working wheel. I am quiet convinced that some of the claims come from our own members, stating that the new invention was taken from their post and let us face it, we must have covered almost everything that could be related to parts of a working wheel.
Fun times ahead.

[Jim Williams]

The only reason I can think of to obtain a patent on a working wheel would be to cause it to become known. Regular media would be sure to follow. Why certain inventors have obtained patents on PMMs that don't work remains beyond me.

[rlortie]

Your name will eventually fade as "Bessler's Wheel" will be the only name remembered.

I don't think so! after all what is the percentage of people aware of Bessler outside those considered cranks chasing his alleged machine.

I disagree with a number of items mentioned here: My opinions are as follows:

Iit will be patentable providing a small model is presentable to the patent agent. If he refuses then you proceed to the Patent Appeals Board. Once physically demonstrated and using a few other patents as precedence you will get your patent.

No one can claim that you have duplicated Bessler without substantiation which to date does not appear likely. Bessler did not patent his wheel, he destroyed it. So I ask you who is going to prove you guilty of stealing some ones un-patented idea around 300 years old?

In present day whoever wins the right to claim they have a working wheel will be recognized in the history books, Not Bessler ( not well remembered outside our own little group) who would be vindicated on the fact it is possible, not his design.

Even if Bessler had obtained a patent it would have run out long ago! Even then if contested the plaintiff would have to prove any claims made against you. After all isn't yours going to be the new and improved version!

Sorry! DrWhat, but I disagree with your above statement. AS I understand the law, Thanks to Jim Williams and Jim_Mich; once a patent is applied for and it is in "certified return receipt requested mail" you have a patent pending. Now it is time to release it even before they receive it. Your butt is covered and you can make the public aware of it before they have a chance to put a lid on it under the National Securities Act.

Your application will probably be denied, or you will receive a request or notice that a working model is necessary.

You cannot patent a wheel barrow as it is an item that evolved over a thousand years. I do not believe a gravity operated device fits in the same category.

If anyone finds or knows me to be wrong, please advise! I have no intent to steer anyone in the wrong direction.

Ralph