I can see members panicking since after all their years of efforts they may not be the first!
Dave, with all due respect you cannot make claims until you have a working wheel.
You MUST have a working wheel.
I have a design based on obvious Bessler clues and safeguards to show (evidence) that I was the first IF I have the correct solution.
But I do not have a working wheel yet, so in this business all talk accounts for nothing!
You may have the solution, but you will often find that two counteracting forces may cancel each other out unless leverage is in play.
Also don't forget Bessler's wheel was claimed to be able to work for a few years without major maintenence, so if you have a certain (specific) type of impact your wheel may not last very long.
We may be at a synchronous point where we are all nearly there. Lets wait and see.
The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Moderator: scott
I've posted comments before about the pitfalls of giving away an idea.
If you do it the wrong way then you may defeat the purpose of giving it away. Inventions are called intellectual property or IP. There are laws governing IP just as there are laws governing real estate property and automobile property. In the case of IP, most of the governing laws are set by congress and interpreted by the patent office and by patent courts. An invention can be defined in at least two ways. It can be defined as a machine or it can be defined as a method. You can describe and show how to build a wheel. Or you can describe and show the principle method of how your wheel works. If you choose only the first way then other people will have little problem designing around how you built your wheel. If you choose the second way then only if someone finds a second principle method can they design around your patent.
I've written all this so you will understand what it is that would be given away. If you choose to NOT obtain a patent, then you would be giving away both the machine design and the principle method. This might seem like what you desire, but it has a down side. Anyone that makes an improvement or modification to your original machine can get a patent and prevent all others from using their design that includes the method that you thought you gave away. By giving away the method you limit the free use of your invention to only the machine design that you first gave away.
An alternate proposal is to spend the time, effort and money to obtain a patent on the principle method of how your wheel works. Then you allow everyone to use the method by simply asking for a freely given license. If someone designs a better working wheel and they are not willing to share like you did then you can deny them use of your patent. This makes their improvement useless unless they agree to share it like you did. In this way you accomplish the goal of preventing a monopoly by big corporations.
What I'm trying to show is that if someone gives away an invention idea then they might be causing more restrictions on the free use of the idea than if they were to follow a different course of action.
Look at it from a real estate perspective. You build this nice house in a beautiful virgin valley and you want to give it away so that everyone can enjoy it. So you give away the house and valley. Along comes a hoard of people into your valley and they build houses and put up fences all over the valley, thus keeping people out. This was not your intent when you gave away the valley. What you should have done was keep possession of the valley and let all use it freely. Then you can let people build houses but you keep the right to say no fences allowed.
Am I making sense?
If you do it the wrong way then you may defeat the purpose of giving it away. Inventions are called intellectual property or IP. There are laws governing IP just as there are laws governing real estate property and automobile property. In the case of IP, most of the governing laws are set by congress and interpreted by the patent office and by patent courts. An invention can be defined in at least two ways. It can be defined as a machine or it can be defined as a method. You can describe and show how to build a wheel. Or you can describe and show the principle method of how your wheel works. If you choose only the first way then other people will have little problem designing around how you built your wheel. If you choose the second way then only if someone finds a second principle method can they design around your patent.
I've written all this so you will understand what it is that would be given away. If you choose to NOT obtain a patent, then you would be giving away both the machine design and the principle method. This might seem like what you desire, but it has a down side. Anyone that makes an improvement or modification to your original machine can get a patent and prevent all others from using their design that includes the method that you thought you gave away. By giving away the method you limit the free use of your invention to only the machine design that you first gave away.
An alternate proposal is to spend the time, effort and money to obtain a patent on the principle method of how your wheel works. Then you allow everyone to use the method by simply asking for a freely given license. If someone designs a better working wheel and they are not willing to share like you did then you can deny them use of your patent. This makes their improvement useless unless they agree to share it like you did. In this way you accomplish the goal of preventing a monopoly by big corporations.
What I'm trying to show is that if someone gives away an invention idea then they might be causing more restrictions on the free use of the idea than if they were to follow a different course of action.
Look at it from a real estate perspective. You build this nice house in a beautiful virgin valley and you want to give it away so that everyone can enjoy it. So you give away the house and valley. Along comes a hoard of people into your valley and they build houses and put up fences all over the valley, thus keeping people out. This was not your intent when you gave away the valley. What you should have done was keep possession of the valley and let all use it freely. Then you can let people build houses but you keep the right to say no fences allowed.
Am I making sense?
Jim you make perfect sense to me anyhow!
I would like Dave to confirm he has a working wheel once he builds one.
I say again, build, make sure it works, then patent. And let us know when you get it working.
Since Dave is a member from way back perhaps we can trust you Dave if you say you get a wheel up and running.
Best of luck!
I would like Dave to confirm he has a working wheel once he builds one.
I say again, build, make sure it works, then patent. And let us know when you get it working.
Since Dave is a member from way back perhaps we can trust you Dave if you say you get a wheel up and running.
Best of luck!
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
It is a disease we ALL suffer... well said!BIBLEAL wrote:Many of us think we know the solution . We like to brag that we found it. It is so simple we say. It is a disease we suffer...
Dave, I wish you every luck with your design and I applaud your good intentions.
Be careful of early conclusions unsupported by a physical build. Be careful of would-be partners trying to get a foot up your back door. Be careful of real estate salemen. Be careful of blind optimism. No matter the outcome, enjoy the ride :D
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
If perpetual power does not exist yet, and there are many scientist and academics that would agree and testify to that, is their no simple way of getting a patent on perpetual power (motion) made from earthly materials? If the wheel (e.g. cart wheel hollow log with axle) wasn’t invented yet) would it not be possible to patent that so any one who uses a wheel with axle would have to pay royalties to you for the use of it in any device. Didn’t Bill Gates cover his invention?
Re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Hi Dave .. well done - history has a funny way of remembering warriors & kings & not so often the scribes & accountants *grin* - you have obviously thought this through & arrived at your decision - everything about your announcement & plan is bold & fortune favours the brave - I'm sure that history [& particularly the forum members] will remember your forthrightness & besides, others here would absolutely ensure that credit was given where credit was due - 'first up best dressed' eh ;)Dave Roberts wrote:Good morning everyone. I have solved the principle used in Bessler's Wheel. I am willing to share this with everyone, just asking that I get credit for solving and revealing it. This is the end result of literally thousands of hours of effort.
I couldn't think of a better way to repay Scott & others than a first release to forum members.Dave wrote:I personally want to thank Scott for setting up this website and John Collins and others for all of their contributions. I also want to thank Ralph as he has been a big help with this also.
It would seem that you have already thought of the answer to that one - email it out to whomever you feel should receive it & then a day later replicate the same information on a private forum [where you invite members to join] or perhaps the community buzz forum - as further protection from possible tedious counter claims bundle up the information you intend to send out & snail mail it to yourself & your lawyer - don't open it however [you know whats inside].Dave wrote:Now, how do I reveal this with guarantees that the solution can not be circumvented before everyone gets it? I would hate for one individual to get it and capitalize before the others.
No, not really, other than see above - if you are intent on letting the solution out then this is a fairly risk free way of doing it.Dave wrote:I have considered having all interested to send me and email (interesting to know how many I would get) and I would respond and post here at the same time. Any better solution?
They may have been dancing around the same camp fire but did they put their money where their mouth is ?Dave wrote:Don't get me wrong, I do not have a working wheel but once the principle is seen and understood, it will be painfully obvious and very simple as compared to many of the others that I have built. Several people here have been dancing around the solution and may have it.
Many will attempt a build & the information would eventually hit the internet ensuring that is was spread far & wide so that anyone could build one in their back yard - nobodies going to try & sue everybody after the genie has escaped the bottle.
Understood - many here have different ideas of what the solution might be - there is likely only one principle that is the correct one so there will be a lot of unhappy people when they get around to making their wheels - human nature.Dave wrote:Although the solution is simple, the description is not and it may take a day or two to make adequate drawings.
That is to be expected but then you know that - it would all depend on how sound & conclusive your reasoning is - you must be very sure to not require a POP & that would mean that it must be simple indeed, which is encouraging.Dave wrote:This has been a big decision for me and I know that some will thank and others will be critical, but I have made my decision.
Put me on your list thanks :)
evgwheel,
There is nothing to prevent you from obtaining a PM patent, except that you must prove that it works, either by a working model or by acceptable scientific formula. A working model is the easier path. At one time you also had to prove that your airplane could fly before a patent could be obtained.
If you patent a wheel that uses a specific principle causing the wheel to turn perpetually then anyone using the principle would need to negotiate a royalty with you.
There is nothing to prevent you from obtaining a PM patent, except that you must prove that it works, either by a working model or by acceptable scientific formula. A working model is the easier path. At one time you also had to prove that your airplane could fly before a patent could be obtained.
If you patent a wheel that uses a specific principle causing the wheel to turn perpetually then anyone using the principle would need to negotiate a royalty with you.
Dave
Just in case and for you I hope it is not the case. If you can’t make a working wheel out of your current project, don’t feel bad, almost all of us have had this experience, the feeling is awesome at the time and if it doesn’t work, well it is a good experience.
Good luck, hope you have a close friend or family member, to go over your current project with you, not all of us are that lucky.
Added: Out of 650 Besslerwheel members, how many work directly for big companies? 1%? Beware!
Add2:Scott
Is it possible or feasible to include a forum which members can only join after signing a consent form? The forum would be on the lines of: blah, blah, will share any profit of a working wheel with other members of this forum, blah blah etc.
Forum and conditions could be posted on your site, but send in by snail mail, some form of ID included. Each member would have a extra password to log into that forum. Other possible ideas would be welcome.
Just in case and for you I hope it is not the case. If you can’t make a working wheel out of your current project, don’t feel bad, almost all of us have had this experience, the feeling is awesome at the time and if it doesn’t work, well it is a good experience.
Good luck, hope you have a close friend or family member, to go over your current project with you, not all of us are that lucky.
Added: Out of 650 Besslerwheel members, how many work directly for big companies? 1%? Beware!
Add2:Scott
Is it possible or feasible to include a forum which members can only join after signing a consent form? The forum would be on the lines of: blah, blah, will share any profit of a working wheel with other members of this forum, blah blah etc.
Forum and conditions could be posted on your site, but send in by snail mail, some form of ID included. Each member would have a extra password to log into that forum. Other possible ideas would be welcome.
Last edited by evgwheel on Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jon J Hutton
- Aficionado
- Posts: 922
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:41 pm
- Location: Somewhere
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Please Please understand this is just my opinion,
If Dave has the answer and his secret gets out. I think Dave will get the credit...but is credit enough to make you rich. First off we have seen how deep the press will dig by just a passing comment from the presidential candidates. Every word by them was scrutinized and found who the original person was that said it. The press has at its disposal and time/resources to find who said what. Remember deferent viruses sent out in small town coffee shops. They were all traceable to exact times and places. Dave will get the credit and book deals/commercials/talk show interviews and the list goes on with perks from big businesses. He will be set for life and his children will have the luxuries and name that their father fought for, and made famous.
Please consider the following. I learned from my time here in Guatemala that life is fragile and precious. I have seen many people die from contaminated water. I have buried many here including children from failed kidneys. Infections so gross that they were hard to look at. If one machine could change the life of one of these precious kids or the ability for their parents to give them security from them staying alive then it would well be worth it. I have dug a well which cost around 100k and used all my money and inheritance from my parents to do this. I used the money from my wife who worked with me on this project ( she passed away after a 15 year fight with cancer). Believe me when I say there is something more than money and fame...especially when you are staring into the face of the parents as their child is dying from a very preventable disease.
While we try to decide how we will give this to the world. Please understand there is much more at stake than first meets the eye. While you are trying to decide the how and whens, the worlds harsh hand continues to relentlessly blow its pain. Please do not wait too long.......money isn't everything, but I hope everyone can have access to this machine.
JJH
If Dave has the answer and his secret gets out. I think Dave will get the credit...but is credit enough to make you rich. First off we have seen how deep the press will dig by just a passing comment from the presidential candidates. Every word by them was scrutinized and found who the original person was that said it. The press has at its disposal and time/resources to find who said what. Remember deferent viruses sent out in small town coffee shops. They were all traceable to exact times and places. Dave will get the credit and book deals/commercials/talk show interviews and the list goes on with perks from big businesses. He will be set for life and his children will have the luxuries and name that their father fought for, and made famous.
Please consider the following. I learned from my time here in Guatemala that life is fragile and precious. I have seen many people die from contaminated water. I have buried many here including children from failed kidneys. Infections so gross that they were hard to look at. If one machine could change the life of one of these precious kids or the ability for their parents to give them security from them staying alive then it would well be worth it. I have dug a well which cost around 100k and used all my money and inheritance from my parents to do this. I used the money from my wife who worked with me on this project ( she passed away after a 15 year fight with cancer). Believe me when I say there is something more than money and fame...especially when you are staring into the face of the parents as their child is dying from a very preventable disease.
While we try to decide how we will give this to the world. Please understand there is much more at stake than first meets the eye. While you are trying to decide the how and whens, the worlds harsh hand continues to relentlessly blow its pain. Please do not wait too long.......money isn't everything, but I hope everyone can have access to this machine.
JJH
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coylo
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Symtoms of this disease include...It is a disease we ALL suffer...
Ignorance, (factual blindness)
Stubborness,
Undetered Optimism,
A one track mind,
Euphoria before finishing a build,
Depression (a real low) after a failed build,
Tendency to hype a build before finishing it,
Builds first, everything else comes later, even mathematics!
A need to recieve appreciation and respect,
Greed,
... and in some cases... telling the odd lie!
In extreme cases the following may apply....
A Superiority complex, (Egomania)
Attention Seeking behaviour,
Mass Delusion,
Paranoia,
Fraud.
Last edited by coylo on Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Don't forget the god puppets :D
Well said Jon. I think that no matter who gets the rights to the principle of the wheel, that person needs to accept that fame and riches may be available to them.
But if it is you Dave, please do the right thing. Make sure it is available for free in the countries and locations that need it the most. They should be able to build it themselves quite easily so simple plans should be available with measurements etc and using simple resources available to third world countries.
Make a small toy wheel built say in China available for purchase by anyone in the world. This will give you a solid income from online purchases. Children and their schools will love it. It will also help poor countries see how to make a scale model and from that make a bigger wheel. As soon as the world realises what you have achieved, the toy will be the hottest product ever and I guarantee you will sell millions online.
Keep a tight reign on multimillion dollar corporations. Maybe license the product to one major company, say Siemens (note the German connection). This will keep Germany happy by reaping taxes from the sales. Siemens also has a worldwide reach and has a history of power generation. I'm sure that there are other companies too that would be suitable.
Please honour those on this site including myself who have spent a lot of time trying to nut this one out.
Maybe work with John Collins to launch his book with the clues and the solution at the same time that the toy will be available.
I think the idea of a private forum with an entry clause is a great idea, indicating that anyone entering the forum acknowledges that the rights of the inventor WHO SHOWS A WORKING WHEEL will be respected and no patents or other rights can be pre-stolen from that inventor. You must show a final working design to do this though otherwise you will be limiting our own research, and areas may overlap. I would kindly ask that I be allowed to enter this forum. Limit it to certain current forum members.
And from the Private Forum we can discuss the product and help you make the correct decisions on how to launch the product. I think that certain people on this forum can be trusted, but play safe regardless.
Good luck Dave. I will be truly excited if you have achieved this.
Make the wheel, watch it work, and lets get this thing rolling.
Damian
But if it is you Dave, please do the right thing. Make sure it is available for free in the countries and locations that need it the most. They should be able to build it themselves quite easily so simple plans should be available with measurements etc and using simple resources available to third world countries.
Make a small toy wheel built say in China available for purchase by anyone in the world. This will give you a solid income from online purchases. Children and their schools will love it. It will also help poor countries see how to make a scale model and from that make a bigger wheel. As soon as the world realises what you have achieved, the toy will be the hottest product ever and I guarantee you will sell millions online.
Keep a tight reign on multimillion dollar corporations. Maybe license the product to one major company, say Siemens (note the German connection). This will keep Germany happy by reaping taxes from the sales. Siemens also has a worldwide reach and has a history of power generation. I'm sure that there are other companies too that would be suitable.
Please honour those on this site including myself who have spent a lot of time trying to nut this one out.
Maybe work with John Collins to launch his book with the clues and the solution at the same time that the toy will be available.
I think the idea of a private forum with an entry clause is a great idea, indicating that anyone entering the forum acknowledges that the rights of the inventor WHO SHOWS A WORKING WHEEL will be respected and no patents or other rights can be pre-stolen from that inventor. You must show a final working design to do this though otherwise you will be limiting our own research, and areas may overlap. I would kindly ask that I be allowed to enter this forum. Limit it to certain current forum members.
And from the Private Forum we can discuss the product and help you make the correct decisions on how to launch the product. I think that certain people on this forum can be trusted, but play safe regardless.
Good luck Dave. I will be truly excited if you have achieved this.
Make the wheel, watch it work, and lets get this thing rolling.
Damian
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BIBLEAL
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Hi Ovyyus
Can you please explain what you mean by "don't forget the god puppets?"
Thanks, BIBLEAL
Can you please explain what you mean by "don't forget the god puppets?"
Thanks, BIBLEAL
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
I mean in addition to Coylo's, "In extreme cases the following may apply...." list.
Haven't we encountered religious (god) extremists (puppets)?
Haven't we encountered religious (god) extremists (puppets)?
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Dave Roberts
- Enthusiast
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:35 pm
- Location: Spencer, Indiana
re: The Solution To Bessler's Wheel
Evening everyone. Seems everyone has a different opinion. No offense to John Collins but I have not been to his website for quite some although I recall somewhere in this forum that he had the solution based on clues (but I have heard this before and are these clues that we all have?).
I do not need a working wheel, period. Of that, John Collins is right. The solution is too obvious. My current project is mostly a direct result of my interpretation of Parks Paper about Bessler - A Little Book Interpretation, which was discounted by so many. I narrowed my efforts down to one design with so many combinations and permutations that it almost drove me crazy, because I could "almost" get rotation. It was extremely frustrating and yes, Ralph has been a help. Ralph can tell you that I have been certain I had the solution several times but I was wrong. This time I know that I am right. Only recently, have I discovered the "principle" and it is right in front of everyone and almost everything in Besslers drawings fell into place.
I consider this of such significance that it needs to be put out for everyone. I do not want the hassle of a patent (although I considered it), andI thoroughly expect someone to grab this and run with it. That is what free enterprise is about.
John Collins - I don't want to step on your toes. You and I have corresponded before, although it has been years. If you have been on the ball and kept a research notebook, signed and witnessed, you should be covered. There are numerous improvements that can be made and patented for someone willing to take the effort. I have tried to apply this "principle" to other designs and am hardpressed to make it work (on paper only). If you would like to send me a private email through this forum, maybe we can work something out. It may be entirely possible that we are working on different designs, but I doubt it.
Sorry to have rambled.
I do not need a working wheel, period. Of that, John Collins is right. The solution is too obvious. My current project is mostly a direct result of my interpretation of Parks Paper about Bessler - A Little Book Interpretation, which was discounted by so many. I narrowed my efforts down to one design with so many combinations and permutations that it almost drove me crazy, because I could "almost" get rotation. It was extremely frustrating and yes, Ralph has been a help. Ralph can tell you that I have been certain I had the solution several times but I was wrong. This time I know that I am right. Only recently, have I discovered the "principle" and it is right in front of everyone and almost everything in Besslers drawings fell into place.
I consider this of such significance that it needs to be put out for everyone. I do not want the hassle of a patent (although I considered it), andI thoroughly expect someone to grab this and run with it. That is what free enterprise is about.
John Collins - I don't want to step on your toes. You and I have corresponded before, although it has been years. If you have been on the ball and kept a research notebook, signed and witnessed, you should be covered. There are numerous improvements that can be made and patented for someone willing to take the effort. I have tried to apply this "principle" to other designs and am hardpressed to make it work (on paper only). If you would like to send me a private email through this forum, maybe we can work something out. It may be entirely possible that we are working on different designs, but I doubt it.
Sorry to have rambled.
Dave