Hi Stewart .. I’ll offer up, for the sake of playing devils advocate, some comments based on your excellent translations & analysis of the two passages in question – these are of course my subjective opinions but may have some relevance or ring a chord of reason with someone else, perhaps – N.B. I read them both with a minds eye reflecting on the original translations that we are so familiar with [see below – Al Bacon; Dirks – PM:AAMS?; DT]
Stewart wrote:... the German and Latin .. seem to me to be very similar. There are some small differences which is perhaps because of the difficulty in finding suitable Latin words, but on the whole the two versions seem to tally. Interestingly though it seems that sometimes the German has extra words and more detail and in other places it's the Latin ... here are my two translations so far:
Page 19/20 of DT - German: Page 19/20 of DT - Latin:
[G] The inner structure of this tympanum or wheel is of such a nature, after which a number of weights arranged according to 'a priori' (that is, scientifically demonstrable) laws of mechanical perpetual motion,
[L] The interior structure of the tympanum or wheel is so constructed, in order that weights, arranged according to 'a priori' or scientifically demonstrable laws of mechanical perpetual motion,
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[G] continuously drive the wheel after/from [a] single received rotation, or after/from [a] single impressed force of the swing/impetus/momentum,
[L] may drive the wheel without rest [from a] single received impulse & revolution,
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[G] and its revolution must continue, so long as that is to say the whole structure maintains itself,
[L] and may cause perpetual motion, as long as of course the structure itself [does] not lose its position and order/arrangement;
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[G] without any further assistance and help [from] external motive forces which would require restitution:
[L] and without any further help & without another added source of motion which may need to be restored.
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jim_mich wrote:
Forum: General Discussion Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 9:43 am Subject: re: "Energy cannot be created or destroyed..."
Comparing the three translations phrase by phrase... It amazes me the above variations in interpretation.
Al Bacon's translation is green.
Henry Dirks translation is black, used in PM-AAMS.
Mike Senior's translation is blue, used in Das Triumphirende.
EDIT : First Half
The internal structure of this drum (or wheel) consists of weights arranged according to several a priori, that is, scientifically demonstrable, laws of mechanical perpetual motion.
inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion,
The internal structure of the wheel is designed in such a way that weights applied in accordance with the laws of perpetual motion,
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After the wheel completes a single rotation, or after a single force is applied to the wheel,
so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation,
work, once a small impressed force has caused the commencement of movement,
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the motion drives the wheel unceasingly.
gain force from their own swinging,
to perpetuate the said movement and cause the rotation to continue indefinitely
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As long as the wheel's whole structure does not change, the wheel continues its revolutions without any further assistance from external motive power.
and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement.
that is, as long as the device retains its structural integrity - without the necessity of external assistance for its continuation
EDIT : Second Half
Other automatic machines,
Unlike all other automata,
such as the mechanisms which are to be found in other "automatics"
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such as clockwork, springs, and hoisting weights, necessarily require an external restoring force.
such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them,
e.g. clockwork, springs or weights that require rewinding.
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The upper weight is not attached to an external mechanism, nor does it rely on external moving bodies by means of whose weight revolutions continue as long as the cords or chains on which they hang permit.
on the contrary these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself;
For this concept, my "principle of excess weight", is NOT just an external appendage, an "added-on device" which is there in order to cause, through application of its weight, the continuation of the motion (the revolution) so long as the cords or chains, from which it depends, permit.
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As long as it remains outside the center of gravity, this upper weight incessantly exercises universal motion from which the essential constituent parts of the machine receive power and push.
as from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity;
NO, these weights are themselves the PM device, the "essential constituent parts" which must of necessity continue to exercise their motive force (derived from the PM principle) indefinitely - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity.
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These parts are enclosed in a case and are coordinated with one another so that they not only never again reach an equilibrium
and when they come to placed together, so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium,
To this end they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium
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(or point of rest)
or the punctum quietus
or "point of rest",
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for themselves but incessantly seek with their admirably fast swing to move
which they unceasingly seek in their wondrous speedy flight,
but they must for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity
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and drive on the axis of their vortices loads that are vertically applied from the outside and are proportional to the size of the housing.
one or another of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn will also move'.
which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing, This velocity is sufficient for the moving and raising of loads applied to the axis of rotation.
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It seems very apparent that Bessler is discussing the internal structure of his wheels.
In particular where the weights are positioned/arranged, which he says is the basis of his Law of Mechanical Perpetual Motion – from this statement & other anecdotal evidence it seems apparent he is describing an overbalance arrangement of weights, that is, the path they are forced to follow which will create continuous overbalance – the weights are the constituent PM themselves, provided they stick to the necessary path, because their positioning will always result in an inherently unstable arrangement that can never find stability or the PQ.
He says that once the wheel is given a single part rotation [degrees of arc of movement/part revolution] which also impresses momentum into the wheel, it will continue to revolve without stopping.
And, its continuing unabated revolutions [Perpetual Motion] will endure as long as the structure [which contains & houses the weights] does not loose its form & function or order of doing things.
And, it does not need nor receive any further external impetus, augmentation, help or assistance from any source of motion from outside the wheel system that would release its Potential Energy to drive the wheel, but then would need restoring to its full Potential Energy quotient again after it was spent.
Stewart wrote:The part that you're asking about is this:
GERMAN: after/from [a] single impressed force of the swing/impetus/momentum
LATIN: [from a] single received impulse
In the German text the words used are 'Force des Schwunges'. 'Schwunges' is a genitive form of 'Schwung' - so it is 'force of the Schwung'. What does 'Schwung' mean?
Click here to see some dictionary meanings. ....
swing, drive, impetus, momentum
it's also true that the word can be used to mean 'swinging' in an oscillatory sense, but in my view that is the least likely meaning in this sentence. "after a single impressed force of swinging/oscillation" - this seems unlikely to me.
If Bessler had really meant to say 'swinging/oscillation' I think he would have used a more common word for it such as 'Schwingen' or 'Schwingung'. Also, the Latin does not support 'swinging/oscillation' but rather impulse/impetus/momentum etc., and as both pieces of text are so similar in all other respects it seems very unlikely that there would be two different intended meanings for just that part.
Thoughts : At One Level, the Latin supports the German by giving no latitude to interpret it as anything else but as ‘a single impulse/impressed force [of momentum].
But at another level, IMO the German doesn’t necessarily support the Latin – if Bessler were to engage in word play it would be with this part of the passages – while I admit this is very subjective I do believe you have identified the reasons for why this might be so below.
Stewart wrote:It's interesting to see some other uses of the word though - there was a reference to 'buoyancy' on that link I provided. Also, the following are from an 1810 German-English dictionary:
Schwung, m.
swing; von der Seele und ihren Fähigkeiten
strain; ein hoher Schwung
a high flight; im Schwunge seyn
to be on the wing, to soar.
Schwingen, n.
swinging, seesawing; vaulting, soaring, taking wing; brandishing, flourishing, beating with a swingle-staff.
Schwingung, f. swinging, seesawing; vaulting, soaring, taking wing; eines Tons, des Pendels
vibration.
One final thing that might have some relevance is that in the phrase 'Force des Schwung', force is not a word of German origin (as is apparent by Bessler's use of a Roman typeface for that word), and the German word that Bessler often uses for force is 'Kraft'. If we look up the term 'Schwungkraft' in the online dictionary -
click here - we get...
buoyancy, momentum, centrifugal force
I'm still trying to confirm the terms that might have been used in Bessler's time to refer to centrifugal force.
A lot does hinge on whether other more common usage words were available for & in use for CF’s, which could also shed light on whether there was a possible & intended word play by Bessler, perhaps.
Bessler possibly had other more suitable words to use to convey impressed force of momentum – the fact that he used the Latin word for Force rather than his own native German ‘Kraft’ might well be significant in the context of possible word plays – if he had of used ‘schwungkraft’ then it would have been read as momentum or centrifugal force by the German speakers amongst his audience & at least momentum would have been recognized as the meaning by the German & Latin speaking scholarly community – it may be that he wanted to covertly bring attention to CF’s & so chose to use the Latin word for Force rather than the German but it may also be that he wanted to covertly rule out CF’s & suggest another meaning for ‘forces des schwunges’ [drive the wheel after a single impressed force of the ????], that being, perhaps one of the other meaning possibly given in your 1810 German dictionary such as swing, that wasn’t also just meaning momentum, which is common to all body’s in motion, but more specific, if not hidden in plane sight.
Stewart wrote:Going back to the Latin - the word used is 'impulsu' which is either the ablative case of the noun 'impulsus', or possibly the ablative case of the supine of the verb 'impello'. Either way it has the following noun meanings: impulse, push, pressure, shock, impact, drive, instigation, incitement.
Other Latin terms used:
tympanum - means a drum. Bessler's wheel resembles a drum in its construction because it has a lightweight cylindrical frame and the top and bottom surfaces of the cylinder (sides of the wheel) were comprised of stretched canvas.
Click here for a dictionary definition of 'a priori'.
Stewart
Anyway, thanks immensely for your efforts Stewart & although subjective discussions don’t always prove insightful or go anywhere useful it does sometimes open other avenues of thought.
