Why I think Bessler was or was not a fraud.

[Jon J Hutton]

This should be interesting for everyone. We all have our own beliefs that push us on, most are centered around Ole Bessler himself. First off for the record I do not think he was a fraud because:

1. The tests were too conclusive
2. He was too committed, and wrote way way too much lit to not have succeeded.
3. His drawings were way past his time in science. Newton was his closest match/rival and even he couldn't or didn't respond.
4. No one proved him wrong upon his death unlike others through history that have claimed the same.
5. The codes.
6. His family/Karl didn't even discredit him or make a confession on their death-bed

Sorry I didn't see John's new topic before I posted this one. You can erase this one if you would like to scott.

[LustInBlack]

I disagree, this thread starts pretty well !


I agree 100% with your statements about Bessler...

[justabil]

You give a good list of reasons. I have different ones that I believe are equally compelling.

Most importantly...Bessler was prepared to reveal his secret to anyone agreeing to his terms (as outrageous as they were). It was not a "cash up front deal". There was that recorded incident that a signature on a contract was required before one of the witnesses could take a peek inside. Consider the outcome.. if the guy had signed the contract, Bessler would be a fraud for not revealing the inner workings or a fraud if, once revealed, PM was not actually proven.

I think its fair to say that people of that time were different than people of today. I do not think Bessler in 1716 would have said to a noblemen he had just tried to dupe,,"ok,,you got me...I was lying to you". There were penalties for that kind of thing back then...

[ssmyser]

...his head. Promising your head was not a vow anyone made lightly back then, as "head chopping" was a common (even anticipated) event. I'm convinced.

[justabil]

Also, if some are thinking that Bessler was never really in jeapordy because his outrageous demands would not be agreed to, or that even if they were he would decline the offer... consider that Bessler alway ran the risk that someone in the room would simply push him aside and steal a look.

We do know that Karl got to see inside. If the thing were a fraud, would Karl want to take the risk of later discovery also?

I've read critics attack some of the witnessed events. Notably, one critic was suspicious that the longest test (for 4 weeks in that castle room) did not have a window in the door (for continuous observation). Fair enough. But I don't see where any of the witnesses to the event suggested/demanded it, and was refused by Bessler. This tells me that they were so convinced that opening the door was the only way to get to the wheel that cheating was not possible.

[axel]

One possible way that Bessler could have had someone run the wheel by pulling on a cord is this:

I used to have a spinning top that operated by pushing down on the aixle from the top. What this did was to cause two weights inside to move nearer the center of rotation and thus increase the top's rpm. It was on a spring, so after you let up on it, the weights would float to the perimeter and you could push them together to the center again and again.

Someone pulling on a cord could also have made B's wheel's turn by pulling the weights to the center of rotation again and again.

EDIT: axle, not axel

[Jon J Hutton]

Playing the devils advocate is allowed here, I think if that is the best rebuttal that the critics use against the wheel, then we have a really solid case. The centrifugal force that the weights would have as they are spinning close to the rim, and then try to bring them to the axel would be the same as trying to turn the whole wheel with a barbed piece of metal attached to the axel...it just wont compute. It is funny the critics say perpetual motion breaks the "laws" but they throw away those same laws when trying to discredit the wheel when they try to explain how they think it was done. Plus the wheel was translocated to a different location. In short if you have to break the laws of TD to explain it away then maybe the problem is not the wheel but the laws you are using.

JJH

[Techstuf]

We do know that Karl got to see inside. If the thing were a fraud, would Karl want to take the risk of later discovery also?

Perhaps that is the surest reason to be certain that the wheel is genuine. Karl was a nobleman. Noblemen nearly always have a nobleman's acquaintances. They also, as a general rule, have a way of sharing secrets among themselves, whether or not they may be fully cognizant of such fact. If Karl saw the inside of the wheel, which seems all but certain to me, it is quite possible that he believed his oath to Bessler was nullified by a 'greater' oath to those among his rank. Many secrets survive to our day from aforetime. 'Noblemen' have amassed a great many of them and are using them to govern the planet as they see fit. The trouble is, they aren't.


Fit, that is. To govern the planet. And given what has been happening to sincere researchers and discoverers of truly beneficial innovations at the hands of these 'noblemen' all the time.....it also seems quite plausible that old Johann never died by accident.


He was pushed.


Had he lived in our day, things would be different, I'm sure.



TS

[axel]

Playing the devils advocate is allowed here, I think if that is the best rebuttal that the critics use against the wheel, then we have a really solid case. The centrifugal force that the weights would have as they are spinning close to the rim, and then try to bring them to the axel would be the same as trying to turn the whole wheel with a barbed piece of metal attached to the axel...it just wont compute. It is funny the critics say perpetual motion breaks the "laws" but they throw away those same laws when trying to discredit the wheel when they try to explain how they think it was done. Plus the wheel was translocated to a different location. In short if you have to break the laws of TD to explain it away then maybe the problem is not the wheel but the laws you are using.

JJH

That's why I threw out this means of propulsion. To make fun of it. It would make the wheel turn, and the maid could have pulled on it as it came out the end of the axle and up one of the support columns, over and through the ceiling floor joists, down through a stone wall, and out to where she was sitting in a chair instead of turning a thin wire. See how easy it would be? About four guide pulleys needed and a cord through stone and thick wood beams. Plus a sturdy willing draught maid.

Rest assured my friends.

Bessler's wheel was not a scam.

[JohnnyD]

And look what Bessler started........!

JohnnyD

[DrWhat]

Bessler would be proud to have a 'fan club' such as ours! At least we believe him!

[ovyyus]

This sure is a fan club alright :D

1. The tests were too conclusive

I don't know about too conclusive, but the tests were impressive.

2. He was too committed, and wrote way way too much lit to not have succeeded.

Truthful people aren't the only ones who can be committed and prodigious writers.

3. His drawings were way past his time in science. Newton was his closest match/rival and even he couldn't or didn't respond.

There is no evidence in Bessler's drawings that suggest a science beyond his time. Newton was not Bessler's rival or match.

4. No one proved him wrong upon his death unlike others through history that have claimed the same.

The inability to prove right or wrong is what maintains the mystery. Lack of proof, either way, means nothing special.

5. The codes.

What codes?

6. His family/Karl didn't even discredit him or make a confession on their death-bed.

His long serving maid tried to discredit him. It seems that anyone close to Bessler's wheel was sworn to secrecy and/or bound by an agreement of silence.

I do think Bessler genuinely created and demonstrated what he thought was PM but I don't think there is any way to be certain of that other than to reproduce his demonstrations. If blind adulation helps get us there, then maybe that's OK too :)

[axel]

A number 7 item added to Bill's list above.

7. Bessler kept making more wheels. Each one bigger and more powerful than its predecessor. A scammer wouldn't have done that. Other claimaints either talked a good story or built one that didn't work, and their efforts burned out like a birthday candle.

[KAS]

I believe his drawings may well have been been ahead of their time as was Bessler himself.
Whilst other around that time were pre occupied with moving armies around the globe in the hope of dominating some far flung land, Bessler was designing and building machines reminiscent of the industrial age which didn't start in earnest until 100 years later.

Kas

[LustInBlack]

Hehehehh..

What is different from today then !?

The same stupid ones are trying to kill everything around for money and control..