Loss of knowledge

[ssmyser]

Please consider the following: Is our failure to replicate Bessler's wheel 1) a lack of understanding or 2) a lack of skill? Allow me to explain: I believe that in the last three hundred years surely someone has had the same idea as Bessler, maybe even someone on this board has had the answer at one time or another, yet been unable to make it a reality for lack of certain skills.
What I mean is this: Perhaps the construction of his wheel required a skill that has been lost to the individual (or hobbyist if you prefer). Example: Casting, bellow making, gear cutting, etc. (I am not endorsing these examples as possible components) but you get the idea. How many of our home 'workshops' are equipped to melt metal, and do perfect gear divisions? ...and how many of us are willing to spend hundreds of hours carving gear teeth with a file when we aren't even 100% sure that our idea is sound?
In short, as we become a society of consumers in a mass-manufactured world, I feel that the ability to replicate Bessler's achievement will continue to diminish. How many times have you had a great idea of some kind, yet you didn't possess the tools, skills, or knowledge to bring the idea to reality? I'm not saying this to discourage anyone, but rather to promote a deeper look at what skills they had back then, that you and I don't have (or have access to) today.
Also, you may enjoy the rich irony in this: The validation of Bessler's entire life work has been left completely in the hands of the "Botchers and Bunglers" that he himself ridiculed. :)

Thank you for your consideration, -ssmyser

[DrWhat]

As I've said many times the problem remains that we don't share our ideas and I am certainly as guilty of that as anyone else. We may already have the solution and just need to combine the ideas of 2 or more members.

We are just like Bessler, not wanting to divulge anything so that we keep the spoils to ourselves or to prevent the idea being "stolen" by the unworthy (in a manner of speaking).

Until we unite we will toil in vain I believe.

[ssmyser]

I think that is a big part of it too. You may have a small piece of the machine or a skill I am lacking for construction, and vice versa. Bessler spent his life learning and mastering all the skills he needed for success, and few of us would be willing (or able) to make the same commitment without a guarantee of positive results. I agree, if the machine is ever to be discovered again, it will involve a collaboration of many.

[KAS]

Ssmyser,

I don't think the lack of skills is the problem. I think you will find an array of talented and skilled people on this forum many of which, although they will never divulge it, are highly qualified.
No doubt there are physicists, Engineers, lecturers and teachers, inventors and mathematicians.

And all this skill and experience is at our disposal if, like you say, the information and ideas are shared.

As for the skills require to actually engineer parts. There is no need in todays vast supply industry, to actually throw some metal on a lathe or mill when you can purchase the part and have it delivered in a day. And all at a fraction of the cost.

No, I believe the problem is that we are all afraid to come out of the scientific closet which is understandable as careers can be ruined in the process.

Kas

[Fletcher]

Good thoughts - my answer; number 1.

There are many wonders of nature at the bottom of my garden
but alas, no fairies or pixie dust to explain them !

[DrWhat]

?

[gapite]

DrWhat - Fletcher means - lack of understanding.

I personally see the notion of Intellectual Property as a crock of s...
How many ideas are had by more than one person?
They are all tapping into the same collective unconscious.

When the human race gives up fear and greed and truly learns to share, I think we'll suprise ourselves at how fast we can progress as a race.

So, how about we show the world what can be done when being completely open with each other, and stop hiding behind secrets and veils.

Lets see where everyone is at and go from there. We've got nothing to lose and all to gain.


Tim.

[AB Hammer]

Kas

I feel left out! you forgot to state Blacksmith/Armourer. I specialize with medieval skills. So this should say that on this forum we cover all skilled aspects needed. But I also say that we may find to have 2 wheels that look alike but one might work and the other will not. simply due to rushing a project. Today we are to impatient.

[KAS]

My apiologies Alan,

How could I forget the birthplace of engineering.

Many moons ago when I was in comprehensive school (US High school equivalent) we were fortunate enough to have a metalwork shop with a fully functional forge.

I loved the metal bashing ruggedness of the place and would often go home with some useless object that I made and with a face as black as a coal miner.
My interest was not supported by my mother who had to wash and scrub my shirts clean.
Nevertheless, it was the start of an interest in all thing mechanical that has never left me.

Kas

[axel]

Please consider the following: Is our failure to replicate Bessler's wheel 1) a lack of understanding or 2) a lack of skill? Allow me to explain: I believe that in the last three hundred years surely someone has had the same idea as Bessler, maybe even someone on this board has had the answer at one time or another, yet been unable to make it a reality for lack of certain skills.
What I mean is this: Perhaps the construction of his wheel required a skill that has been lost to the individual (or hobbyist if you prefer). Example: Casting, bellow making, gear cutting, etc. (I am not endorsing these examples as possible components) but you get the idea. How many of our home 'workshops' are equipped to melt metal, and do perfect gear divisions? ...and how many of us are willing to spend hundreds of hours carving gear teeth with a file when we aren't even 100% sure that our idea is sound?
In short, as we become a society of consumers in a mass-manufactured world, I feel that the ability to replicate Bessler's achievement will continue to diminish. How many times have you had a great idea of some kind, yet you didn't possess the tools, skills, or knowledge to bring the idea to reality? I'm not saying this to discourage anyone, but rather to promote a deeper look at what skills they had back then, that you and I don't have (or have access to) today.
Also, you may enjoy the rich irony in this: The validation of Bessler's entire life work has been left completely in the hands of the "Botchers and Bunglers" that he himself ridiculed. :)

Thank you for your consideration, -ssmyser

You all go through this again and again.

It is not a loss of knowledge.

What with all the private forums for very special people out there and books that will be alledgely published, the knowledge exists somewhere.

However, I'm not too concerned about it any more.

$Edit$

[docfeelsgood]

"Any damned fool can design something complicated ".
"It takes a genius to design something simple ".
per "Pete Seegar"

[Jim Williams]

If the internet was commonly available in 1712 would Bessler have been a member of this forum? It is one thing to believe one has found the answer to perpetual motion and it is quite another to believe that one's own self is the only person in history to have found this same solution. Did Bessler believe he had created something that had never existed before or did he believe he was replicating work that had already been accomplished?

Woe be to those who believe they have found the solution, are convinced they are the only person who has ever done so and remain content to never reveal this solution to anyone but themselves.

[Fletcher]

Did Bessler believe he had created something that had never existed before or did he believe he was replicating work that had already been accomplished?

hmm .. let's look at things anecdotal - Bessler said he found the answer in nature [by observation] - he said that children playing in the lane used it [observation] - he hand drew a whistling top in the MT toy page along with some other mechanical actions - he said one word could give it all away [a verb ?!] - he said he was indebted to his experiences in organ making which paved the way for him to find a solution - he praised God for giving him the answer in his dreams [God could be construed as the architect of all things found in nature].

hmm .. I would say he felt he had created a unique mechanical application for/of a fundamental force he had observed in nature, to which he could rightly claim to be the first to do so to make mechanical FE - he obviously could not lay claim to having thought of the force without prior knowledge [see above].

N.B. its one thing to have a good idea & another to calculate it, design it & build it - in my experience, & as we all know, unless you can prove the principle by experimentation that would lead to mechanical FE [not necessarily a complete wheel but that would be more convincing] then it remains an untested theory, no matter how good it looks to you or me in our heads or on paper.

One thing that really bugged me - his first wheel at Gera being just 3.7 inches in width [I guess I'm just not thinking 'simple' enough ?] - most people start with a complex bulky design & over the course of time simplify it & refine it, make it more elegant & efficient if you will, strip out the unnecessary & wastage - in this case Bessler's wheels got wider [with more internal volume & width strength] as the diameter & power increased, yet you might have expected him to start with smaller width to diameter ratios that got successively larger as his expertise & simplicity increased ?! 1:16 , 1: 18 , 1:12 , 1:8 approximately.

If you allow for the presumption that the last two wheels were bi-directional with mirror systems side by side then their ratios would be more like 1:24 , 1:16 if comparing apples to apples - the last wheel [longevity test] might have been necessarily more sturdy for more reliability & hence extra spar thickness ?!

[ssmyser]

Fletcher,
Can you tell me where the reference to 'children playing in the lane' came from? I'm not doubting you, I just can't remember that one. Thank you.

[Fletcher]

Here you go !

John Collins - Christian Wagner's Critique

in the first paragraph of 2). of Part 2.

http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/bessl ... emies.html

Finally, Herr Orffyreus supposedly gets to the root of the matter when he asserts that children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force.

Christian Wagner's Critique - Community Buzz

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... reet#43509

I've had a few people ask me about certain parts of the Wagner documents - particularly the bit where Wagner, apparently quoting Bessler, says that "the children in the street played with his perpetual motion" etc. I'm not sure where Bessler said this. I don't remember reading it in any of Bessler's books, so maybe it was only something Bessler said in conversation. John - do you have any ideas on this? I'll talk more about this and some of the other interesting parts of Wagner's documents in my next post, but must end now for the moment.