Just a thought, but think about it.....
Energy that was once stored as matter is being released constantly for over 50 years and there is nowhere for that energy to escape to because of the vacuum of space.
There has never been so much energy in the atmosphere and earths surface in the history of humanity because of this.
Energy that has never been released before and never would have been has been let loose by us....constantly and growing!
Is this a legitimate point?
Can CO2 take all the blame?
Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Moderator: scott
re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
But that is exactly where all heat energy eventually escapes to. All heat energy eventually radiates out into cold empty space. If it didn't then we would be fried by the sun. Most all of mankind's energy needs are obtained from using heat engines. And these heat engines need a temperature difference to function. So we dump the excess heat into the environment. The environment in turn radiates the excess heat out into space. The Earth is like a liking oranism in that it self regulates. If the Earth gets warmer then plants grow faster. Growing plants remove heat and CO2 from the Earth and the Earth's temperature drops.coylo wrote: and there is nowhere for that energy to escape to because of the vacuum of space.
re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Global diming may play an important part in reducing the amount of energy escaping back into space. Perhaps the clarity of the atmosphere has more effect than the CO2 concentration.
There is a nuclear plant in Florida that supports a colony of crocodiles because the waste heat keeps the lagoon warm enough for them.
There is a nuclear plant in Florida that supports a colony of crocodiles because the waste heat keeps the lagoon warm enough for them.
Vic Hays
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psychopath
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If the Earth was completely shut off from the rest of space then eventually nuclear power might start heating the Earth.
I don't think nuclear power has caused enough heat yet to actually warm the Earth, but global warming contributes to nuclear power's effects, since global warming stops heat from escaping into space. But I really don't think even in 1000 years nuclear power could produce enough heat, even if the heat couldn't escape.
I might be wrong though...
I don't think nuclear power has caused enough heat yet to actually warm the Earth, but global warming contributes to nuclear power's effects, since global warming stops heat from escaping into space. But I really don't think even in 1000 years nuclear power could produce enough heat, even if the heat couldn't escape.
I might be wrong though...
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coylo
re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
I was watching that equinox doc on free energy again.... and what Arthur C Clarke commented on at the end, reminded me of this thread.
He said....
This gravity wheel business may not be the holy grail everyone makes it out to be! Maybe the pursuit of free energy it is cursed - a pandora's box!
"Curiosity killed the cat."
I suppose it's the nature of humanity, if Oppenheimer hadn't split the atom, someone else would have, eventually.
"To be denied something from us, makes us have a mind for it". Things are achieved.... just for the sake of seeing if they can be done. These kind of challenges get me out of bed in the morning - the impossible questions.
...ramblin' over.
He said....
I'd share the same concern. If every household in the world suddenly purchased and turned on a gravity motor, the earth's regulation process that Jim mentioned just could not cope with that kind of surge. We'd have serious problems IMHO!...it's hard to see any disadvantage (of free energy), but I could think of one.
If we have unlimited amounts of free energy, where is all that energy going to go? Energy always degrades eventually into heat, so if we all had thousands of kilowatts to play with, the earth may heat up and eventually become as hot as Venus.
This gravity wheel business may not be the holy grail everyone makes it out to be! Maybe the pursuit of free energy it is cursed - a pandora's box!
"Curiosity killed the cat."
I suppose it's the nature of humanity, if Oppenheimer hadn't split the atom, someone else would have, eventually.
"To be denied something from us, makes us have a mind for it". Things are achieved.... just for the sake of seeing if they can be done. These kind of challenges get me out of bed in the morning - the impossible questions.
...ramblin' over.
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primemignonite
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re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Something that Jim_Misch wrote caught my eye and inspired a thought: ". . . Most all of mankind's energy needs are obtained from using heat engines. . . ."
But what of the engine that operates extra-thermodynamically, i.e. a unique type of device such as the Bessler sort? Such a thing, if finally found and put into large-scale operation, would it not account for more cooling and less heating than before?
James
But what of the engine that operates extra-thermodynamically, i.e. a unique type of device such as the Bessler sort? Such a thing, if finally found and put into large-scale operation, would it not account for more cooling and less heating than before?
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Just an observation or two.
All engines are thermodynamically contrived in one form or another - no acceptions that I can lay my hands on at the minute - Arthur C Clark's comments would seem accurate if we are talking about the likes of nuclear energy where mass is transformed into energy in the form of heat but all other types release calories/joules by igniting & oxidising a fuel source or by scavenging heat from the environment [solar/gravity cycle; geothermal etc] causing heat exchanging, expansion followed by rapid cooling & contraction, to repeat the cycle.
There is no evidence to think that Bessler was before Rutherford so imo it leaves the distinct possibility that his Free Energy was also thermodynamically based & therefore remain within the bounds of the Conservation Of Energy Laws, either burning a fuel source such as black powder [very unlikely] or a thermal engine using ambient temperature to drive his wheel as a second alternative.
What ever the source of his Prime Mover Force I am confident that it will be found to be of nature & be ambient - as the wheel could do work then it must have created extra heat which would have dissipated into the room or immediate wheel surroundings by conductive air warming, to a small degree given its low power output.
But, what if, as me, you believe in the Conservation of Energy Law then it might just be that Besslers wheels released energy after having done work back into the immediate environment but that the tag Free Energy is really just another way of saying unobserved transformation of ambient energy.
Put simply, if Bessler's wheels outputted heat [& they must have] then to balance the thermal energy books it must have drawn heat out of its surrounding, in one form or another ! This would mean that Cark's assumption would be false & if work was done by the wheels then something worked on achieved a higher potential energy state & heat was lost from the system leading to an overall cooling effect.
All engines are thermodynamically contrived in one form or another - no acceptions that I can lay my hands on at the minute - Arthur C Clark's comments would seem accurate if we are talking about the likes of nuclear energy where mass is transformed into energy in the form of heat but all other types release calories/joules by igniting & oxidising a fuel source or by scavenging heat from the environment [solar/gravity cycle; geothermal etc] causing heat exchanging, expansion followed by rapid cooling & contraction, to repeat the cycle.
There is no evidence to think that Bessler was before Rutherford so imo it leaves the distinct possibility that his Free Energy was also thermodynamically based & therefore remain within the bounds of the Conservation Of Energy Laws, either burning a fuel source such as black powder [very unlikely] or a thermal engine using ambient temperature to drive his wheel as a second alternative.
What ever the source of his Prime Mover Force I am confident that it will be found to be of nature & be ambient - as the wheel could do work then it must have created extra heat which would have dissipated into the room or immediate wheel surroundings by conductive air warming, to a small degree given its low power output.
But, what if, as me, you believe in the Conservation of Energy Law then it might just be that Besslers wheels released energy after having done work back into the immediate environment but that the tag Free Energy is really just another way of saying unobserved transformation of ambient energy.
Put simply, if Bessler's wheels outputted heat [& they must have] then to balance the thermal energy books it must have drawn heat out of its surrounding, in one form or another ! This would mean that Cark's assumption would be false & if work was done by the wheels then something worked on achieved a higher potential energy state & heat was lost from the system leading to an overall cooling effect.
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MrTim
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Human produced nuclear power "warming" the planet would be insignificant compared to all the radioactive ore still out there that's been doing it's 'thing' (i.e. releasing energy as it decays) for millions of years.
Besides, if "global warming" becomes too much of a problem due to nuclear power, we can just set off a few hydrogen bombs and cancel it out with a nuclear winter.... ;)
Besides, if "global warming" becomes too much of a problem due to nuclear power, we can just set off a few hydrogen bombs and cancel it out with a nuclear winter.... ;)
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primemignonite
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re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Fletcher writes: "Put simply, if Bessler's wheels outputted heat [& they must have] then . . ."
Why "must" they have?
And then comes this: ". . . then to balance the thermal energy books . . ."
And why is it necessary for us to assume that they must be balanced, where Bessler produced energy is the source? Have we not all heard that there are 'no free lunches'? Meaning to me, book balancing; but Bessler power would be free, ergo no books to be balanced, as is usually the case.
Fact: without a working Bessler wheel to study, those not having one do not and cannot know that the Bessler Effect is not manifested of something truly strange, such as "hyper-dimensional physics", as they call it, or whatnot, and as such, 'the rules' are bent, or simply no longer apply.
James
Why "must" they have?
And then comes this: ". . . then to balance the thermal energy books . . ."
And why is it necessary for us to assume that they must be balanced, where Bessler produced energy is the source? Have we not all heard that there are 'no free lunches'? Meaning to me, book balancing; but Bessler power would be free, ergo no books to be balanced, as is usually the case.
Fact: without a working Bessler wheel to study, those not having one do not and cannot know that the Bessler Effect is not manifested of something truly strange, such as "hyper-dimensional physics", as they call it, or whatnot, and as such, 'the rules' are bent, or simply no longer apply.
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
That is precisely the point james - there are no free lunches, every bite must be paid for, ergo, the books must balance !
Yes, the power to do work from a Bessler wheel would be free, but not without a cost to the wider natural system [this might be a cost we would welcome at the present time] - there are two Laws to consider - entropy & conservation of energy & neither to my knowledge has been circumvented by either "hyper-dimensional physics, bent rules, rules that don't apply" or fairy magic for that matter.
Entropy means that a systems average tendency is to loose order [more randomness] & for heat to flow one way, from hot to cold, & not the reverse.
Conservation of energy is a well known & accepted mandate.
To answer your particular point - Besslers wheels did do work [fact] - they had internal friction to contend with which will have generated heat as a normal system loss along with sound & windage - therefore, to do work & account for heat losses etc the energy supplied to the wheel must be restocked/replenished, on demand, & immediately - assuming this came from the ambient wheel surroundings for a moment, then, this would mean that the local surrounding system would become less energetic & randomness & chaoticness temporarily replaced by greater order leading to localized cooling to balance the books - this cooling would absorb heat from the greater surrounds restoring entropy but the average temperature of the system as a whole would reduce until the work done on objects by the wheel to raise their potential energy was released.
It raises an interesting possibility thats been on my mind for a while - could this type of gravity wheel or indeed Bessler's wheel slowly cool the atmosphere & go some way towards mitigating the effects of humans burning fossil fuels & releasing sequestered carbon into the atmosphere ?
If this were so, then the wheel might have even larger & more important possibilities than meagre Free Energy, providing we could store any excess energy efficiently ?!
And, there are plenty of ways to do that, but it would seem that FE from gravity wheels of this type would help in a transition period where we move away from fossil fuels dependance but eventually the energy produced by multitudes of gravity wheels would have to be used as it was produced to balance the books & the natural system.
Yes, the power to do work from a Bessler wheel would be free, but not without a cost to the wider natural system [this might be a cost we would welcome at the present time] - there are two Laws to consider - entropy & conservation of energy & neither to my knowledge has been circumvented by either "hyper-dimensional physics, bent rules, rules that don't apply" or fairy magic for that matter.
Entropy means that a systems average tendency is to loose order [more randomness] & for heat to flow one way, from hot to cold, & not the reverse.
Conservation of energy is a well known & accepted mandate.
To answer your particular point - Besslers wheels did do work [fact] - they had internal friction to contend with which will have generated heat as a normal system loss along with sound & windage - therefore, to do work & account for heat losses etc the energy supplied to the wheel must be restocked/replenished, on demand, & immediately - assuming this came from the ambient wheel surroundings for a moment, then, this would mean that the local surrounding system would become less energetic & randomness & chaoticness temporarily replaced by greater order leading to localized cooling to balance the books - this cooling would absorb heat from the greater surrounds restoring entropy but the average temperature of the system as a whole would reduce until the work done on objects by the wheel to raise their potential energy was released.
It raises an interesting possibility thats been on my mind for a while - could this type of gravity wheel or indeed Bessler's wheel slowly cool the atmosphere & go some way towards mitigating the effects of humans burning fossil fuels & releasing sequestered carbon into the atmosphere ?
If this were so, then the wheel might have even larger & more important possibilities than meagre Free Energy, providing we could store any excess energy efficiently ?!
And, there are plenty of ways to do that, but it would seem that FE from gravity wheels of this type would help in a transition period where we move away from fossil fuels dependance but eventually the energy produced by multitudes of gravity wheels would have to be used as it was produced to balance the books & the natural system.
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primemignonite
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re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
"Conservation of energy is a well known & accepted mandate." - Fletcher, 09. III. 08., 11:43 am
This holds good for this dimensional existence, seemingly, but may not necessarily so-do for others.
The possibility exists that Besslers wheel may operate outside those mundane laws so wearyingly repeated, as if they were known to be viable outside of our own time, and space.
The mind of man with it's pet prejudices and thread-bare notions, are works of lesser wonder, all right, and suffer encasement in an intellectual cement utterly impenetrable to canny suggestion.
This chauvinism is a mistake to indulge very far, but it is, and constantly. The nasty habit accounts, in-the-main, for why Bessler's wheel secret has yet to be found (that is, if we are to assume that it has not already?!).
Near-future events will point the way to the "Window Egress" for many moribund lab coat types, and constant repetitions of old non-universal laws then discredited, will blessedly become less and less, 'till vanished all together.
To this happiest of times I greatly look forward.
James
This holds good for this dimensional existence, seemingly, but may not necessarily so-do for others.
The possibility exists that Besslers wheel may operate outside those mundane laws so wearyingly repeated, as if they were known to be viable outside of our own time, and space.
The mind of man with it's pet prejudices and thread-bare notions, are works of lesser wonder, all right, and suffer encasement in an intellectual cement utterly impenetrable to canny suggestion.
This chauvinism is a mistake to indulge very far, but it is, and constantly. The nasty habit accounts, in-the-main, for why Bessler's wheel secret has yet to be found (that is, if we are to assume that it has not already?!).
Near-future events will point the way to the "Window Egress" for many moribund lab coat types, and constant repetitions of old non-universal laws then discredited, will blessedly become less and less, 'till vanished all together.
To this happiest of times I greatly look forward.
James
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Yes, the laws governing the fairy dimensions could be quite different indeed. How dare this dimension be so observed and scrutinised! How dare mere beastly men think they could rise beyond the lowly station of which they were so clearly designed and hope to ever understand this dimension. How dare they!!!primemignonite wrote:This holds good for this dimensional existence, seemingly, but may not necessarily so-do for others.
Let's do wish for an early start to those long prophesied "near future event's" so that we may not be plagued, constantly, by all those wearingly repeating nasty-habit-moribund-lab-coat-types hell bent on applying their indulgent intellectually chauvinistic cement-like gaze upon natures sacred gonads. The cheek of them, nay, I say the hide and gall, or, in the least, indeed, the utter ingratitude of those filthy pig trough eaters. How dare they!!!
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primemignonite
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re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
In the wake the practically illegal abuse of the 'lowest form of humor' that just blew past before, I am now freed-up and well primed to state as follows:
When, not if, BUT WHEN Bessler's wheel finally appears - going merrily around of it's very own self, and right out in the free open for all to see and enjoy - THREE CENTURIES of invective, vituperation, excoriation, accusations of insanity (and worse), derision, and all other manner of heaped up abuse, in-general
WILL-BE-AT-AN-END!!!
Then there be but SIX "Follies of Science" to chip away at! One down - a half dozen to go!
Also, while in the mood, there's this tail to attach . . . for the very life of me I cannot fathom why some persons plan soft landings to the comfort of our classical tormentors - they of the physics "fairy" world of madness, destruction and poisonous faith-hating. (And yes, one does suspect that the previous wind blown past was, or is still, one of the very stripe of their own! Shall we investigate?)
Why seek out worthless approbation from that quarter of gas-filled, strutting and self-congratulating cliquish cruelty? For all the charity and kindliness they have shown us over the many eons of struggle?
CROW!
Hundreds of TONS upon TONS of eating of it, do they have coming for what they have done, and enjoyed doing! (Might they have only themselves to blame for their coming PM catastrophe, possibly?)
Readers, consider this if you will: in the end, PERPETUAL MOTION - that thing denied by them formally, from at least since the time of Helmholz - will have come NOT from quarters scientific, but rather, from us ordinaries!!! The true significance of this will not be missed.
Yes, indeed . . CROW!
James
PS If anyone out there is in agreement with these delicate sentiments I've offered up, please, please do punch-up a Greenie? [I'm gonna need 'em! :-) ]
.
When, not if, BUT WHEN Bessler's wheel finally appears - going merrily around of it's very own self, and right out in the free open for all to see and enjoy - THREE CENTURIES of invective, vituperation, excoriation, accusations of insanity (and worse), derision, and all other manner of heaped up abuse, in-general
WILL-BE-AT-AN-END!!!
Then there be but SIX "Follies of Science" to chip away at! One down - a half dozen to go!
Also, while in the mood, there's this tail to attach . . . for the very life of me I cannot fathom why some persons plan soft landings to the comfort of our classical tormentors - they of the physics "fairy" world of madness, destruction and poisonous faith-hating. (And yes, one does suspect that the previous wind blown past was, or is still, one of the very stripe of their own! Shall we investigate?)
Why seek out worthless approbation from that quarter of gas-filled, strutting and self-congratulating cliquish cruelty? For all the charity and kindliness they have shown us over the many eons of struggle?
CROW!
Hundreds of TONS upon TONS of eating of it, do they have coming for what they have done, and enjoyed doing! (Might they have only themselves to blame for their coming PM catastrophe, possibly?)
Readers, consider this if you will: in the end, PERPETUAL MOTION - that thing denied by them formally, from at least since the time of Helmholz - will have come NOT from quarters scientific, but rather, from us ordinaries!!! The true significance of this will not be missed.
Yes, indeed . . CROW!
James
PS If anyone out there is in agreement with these delicate sentiments I've offered up, please, please do punch-up a Greenie? [I'm gonna need 'em! :-) ]
.
Cynic-In-Chief, BesslerWheel (Ret.); Perpetualist First-Class; Iconoclast. "The Iconoclast, like the other mills of God, grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly small." - Brann
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John Collins
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re: Could Nuclear Power be warming the planet?
Whether you are in Jame's camp or Bill's you must admit that the literary quality of their utterances is of a level far exceeding that of the rest of us amateur hacks. I for one applaud the quality of their posts, even though I sometimes don't fully understand them.
JC
JC
But alas James, your utterances remain but verbosities, of no fault of your own.
And regardless of their quality, the real truth, the real substance of the matter is that the wheel remains motionless.
Awaiting for it's eternal soul to be implanted, for this friendly rotational Frankenstein to come to life.
Hence any vindication for all our troubles remains so far soley in our imaginations.
;-)
And regardless of their quality, the real truth, the real substance of the matter is that the wheel remains motionless.
Awaiting for it's eternal soul to be implanted, for this friendly rotational Frankenstein to come to life.
Hence any vindication for all our troubles remains so far soley in our imaginations.
;-)