Jim_Mich's beef with Ralph

[scott]

Since a squabble over the term "expert" seems to have erupted here, I thought I'd offer up a few gems from the random quotes list:

"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert."
- Aphorism

"An expert is a person who avoids small error as he sweeps on to the grand fallacy."
- Benjamin Stolberg

"If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done."
- Peter Ustinov (1921 - 2004)

"Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it."
- Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988)

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few."
- Shunryu Suzuki

"An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field."
- Niels Bohr


Thanks for listening. And now... back to our regularly scheduled bickering. :-)
-Scott

[Fletcher]

E .. exceptional
X .. x-ray
P .. perceptiveness
E .. eliminates
R .. random
T .. thoughts

[scott]

This quote is particularly pithy these days I think:

"If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done."
- Peter Ustinov (1921 - 2004)

Since all the experts are looking down at their equations and saying "What, me worry?"
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/sc ... -hole/1052
http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Geo ... SJ10a.html

[rlortie]

Too bad this thread couldn't end with a photo of a smiling Jim sharing a nice steak dinner with a smiling Ralph at a picnic table in a park at somewhere, U.S.A.

Ah! yes Michael I agree, that would be nice! But on the other hand we have to "eat Crow" once in a while to keep things balanced. We cannot appreciate the Yin in life without experiencing the Yang.

Not only that but think of it as an addictive soap opera. Tune in tomorrow!
Eventually we will see which one should not consider giving up their day job to become captain of a debate team.

I see the votes are coming in, Jim-Mich and my reputation bar have both dropped a notch! :-)

Ralph

[primemignonite]

Jim_Misch and Ralph,

This worthy topic has now grown to five-pages-long of compounded complexity, much of the very best of it (I think) not being understandable by me.

For the sake of brevity and understanding, might one of you (or both) place gently into a nutshell, a brief sketch of what it's about? (A medium-sized nutshell, please.)

Thanks,

James

[rlortie]

James,

I can only speak for myself and I call it an "ego" trip!

CADMAN3D opened the door revealing the nature of the beast. It has been fun but I must admit I no longer find it amusing. I feel I have made my point and will now follow the path that was recommended by my supporters. That is to consider the source and ignore.

I now leave the thread in the good hands of Jim_Mich and CADMAN3D for the final scenes. I am off for a ride into the sunset! Maybe perchance I will bump into " Douglas Wrong way Corrigan"

Ralph

[jim_mich]

For the sake of brevity and understanding, might one of you (or both) place gently into a nutshell, a brief sketch of what it's about? (A medium-sized nutshell, please.)

James, it all start awhile back. I'll try to put this as delicately as possible.

Ralph would from time to time make technical statements that were not true. It was very obvious from reading these statements that Ralph didn't know what he was talking about. At first I just ignored them. Many times Ralph would offer to help forum members with construction of their wheels. In these offers he would say that he has many years experience working with gravity wheels. He would make it sound like he was some sort of expert in mechanical things. He even called himself an engineer at times. His bio says he is a retired maintenance engineer. Does that mean he was a janitor? I don't know! But from reading Ralph's postings it was very clear that he lacked a proper engineering education. Most engineering is done using mathematical calculation. Ralph would state that he didn't think very much of calculations. He considered himself more of a "hands on" type of guy. It is my understanding that when members sent ideas to Ralph, then if Ralph thought they had merit he would build their wheel. Ralph has a very nice woodworking shop. It is my understanding that Ralph attached strings to his offer of help in that if the wheel were to work then Ralph was to be named co-inventor on any patent application. This would be fraud, for only the true original inventor can obtain a patent.

So here we have an individual with a nice woodshop willing to help members build their wheels. Why should it bother me? I felt it deceitful for Ralph to represent himself as having superior engineering skills when it was obvious that he lacked said engineering skills. It was also deceitful and unlawful for him to ask to be named co-inventor even if he added no new idea or concept to a member’s wheel. Obviously it is none of my business what Ralph and other members do or agree to.

I decided to at least alert members to Ralph’s lack of technical engineering expertise. So the next few times Ralph made a false technical statement I pointed it out. One of these times was with post 42461 concerning whether a heavier weight would need to speed up or slow down in order to balance. At first I simply said that Ralph’s statement was not true and I gave Ralph an opportunity to recognize and correct his error. With Ralph’s lack of mechanical expertise he was unable to recognize the error and so he tried to bury me in page after page of verbose text. I kept trying to lead the conversation back to Ralph’s original erroneous statement but to no avail. In the process Ralph started insulting me. He kept insisting that he was right due to all his past experience with fly-ball governors. He kept insisting that I was wrong. Unfortunately the discussion degraded into a simple pissing match because I got totally piss off with Ralph.

Eventually Ralph admitted in a very derogatory manner that he was wrong. In the process he signed the post calling himself Wong Way Walf.

Recently a comment was made concerning the number of levers being 15 on the original MT10 verses 16 lever on Bill’s drawings of MT10. I made a quick copy of both pictures side by side and as I was about to post the pictures when I noticed Ralph’s comment that his copy of MT10 had 16 levers. So I clipped Steve’s original comment along with Ralph’s comment attributing it to “Wong Way Walf�, which set Ralph off on a barrage of words against me.

Then along comes Cadman3D telling me that I misunderstood Ralph’s original comments and he implied that I don’t understand how to calculate CF properly. Cadman failed to note that the original first discussion did not involve a weight on a rope but was rather a discussion concerning a fly-ball governor. Ralph insinuated that I didn’t know about fly-ball governors and now Cadman insinuates that I don’t know about CF. These insinuations really irritate me. Let me explain why.

James, your writing style seems to indicate a person with very high intelligence, whereas my writing style is that of an average man. What most people don’t see is that my natural knowledge and aptitude for things mechanical is in the genius range. I don’t say this to flaunt it, but to raise a point. A couple times when I was young I took an employment test where they attempt to determine your mechanical aptitude. I’m sure some members have taken such tests. Both times the human resource person questioned me, asking if I had taken this test before or if someone had given me the answers. Never before had anyone gotten all the answers 100 percent right and finished the test in less time than allotted. Also high school mechanical aptitude tests put me in the 99th percentile. So when someone like Ralph comes along and tries to tell me that I’m wrong concerning something mechanical, well Ralph (as usual) just doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Then Ralph starts insulting me in numerous ways. He calls me belligerent and egotistical. He fills numerous postings attacking me. He twists the meaning of my words. For instance I said, “Ralph's posts make it quite clear that his 'experience' has not made him an expert.� My meaning was an expert in mechanical things. He twists it around to mean expert in PM type things. He does this twisting of my words whenever I attempt to debate with him.

My whole beef with Ralph is that in offering to help other’s with their wheels he puts himself forth as someone with a lot of mechanical experience and ability and he (as I understand it) asks them in return to agree to have him as co-inventor, when the fact is Ralph lacks certain mechanical knowledge and expertise and it's unlawful to apply for a patent as a co-inventor unless all parties have provided ideas. Such would be considered fraud. I also find it reprehensible when Ralph states false facts here on the forum concerning how things would happen in certain mechanical situations and thus lead members astray. So I’ve made it my business to point out any such errors.

Ralph can take it or leave it. He can piss and moan about it all he wants. He can keep calling me names and insulting me. From this point on I will refuse to answer to any of Ralph’s personal insults. Ralph likes to post long drawn out comments concerning my posting, which only results in a pissing match. He has befouled a number of threads in this way.

I will continue to address Ralph as “Wong Way Walf� but only when I spot one of his obvious errors. All Ralph needs do is respond in a polite and respectful manner instead of throwing insults at me. If he is not serious and his erroneous post is supposed to be a joke then I suggest he put it in the off topic joke thread.

James, I'm sorry this ended up a large nutshell.



edit: fixed link

[FunWithGravity]

Ralph.

Love your www.link to your great workmanship. Your a true craftsman. And very generourous to 1, take the time to take pictures, 2. to share them with others.

I browse this site occasionally but have lost much interest with it or any other OU site, i think the intent of the SHARED information webiste is a noble idea. but i don't think any real information actually gets shared here.

When the most active post is a fight between two grown men over words its a sad state of affairs.

Their are only a handful of people that are actually building physical models and trying to achieve a greater good. With the reliance on modeling software i think we get further daily from finding the answer.

I will wager a bet that when the secret is found it will not be shown here or elswhere on an OU site. And will not be by a member either. I can also guarantee that the inventor will not want anything to do with these types of sites because of just such behavior that this thread is about.


Its great the counter says XXX hundred visited this site today, but only a handful of regulars post banter. Whats evryone else doing? Laughing?




Gartner.com is what this site should be called. I don't want everyone to show thier secret idea so i can steal it, but thats what everyone thinks of everyone else here. The perpetual ego stroking and cock fighting that the intellectuals on this site resort to continually should be ambarrassing to all regular posters and the moderator.


This post sums up everything thats ever happened on Bessler wheel.

I'm smarter
I'm better
your wrong
that will never work
your stupid
how can you be so wrong
i can't tell you yet
will post pictures when done
how can noone have seen it, i'll tell you soon
i know what it is.
great idea but i beat you by a week, i though of that but never posted.


Instead of continueing to post everyone should just have scott put the site in an endless loop. the same ideas, the same arguments, over and over. just change the dates and names through some randon generator and noone would be the wiser.

[Mak#1]

Fun with Gravity; In some respects I agree with your post, but I think you are throwing some good apples in with the bad. For instance I have never in two years since I have visited this site, heard an unkind word from fletcher, he has always been there for just about everyone, giving his time his expertice and never asking for anything. John Collins gave thirty years of his life in painstaking research and laid it out for everyone to see. Sure he made some money off of it , so what! But I think he is genuine when he says we need to find the answer to this problem for mankind. All of us, when we think of how a large sum of money could change our lives, help our loved ones, and maybe put a dent in world hunger, would like to have sucess. I am sorry if this makes no sense as I have never had the gift of gab.

[rlortie]

I said that I was done, but I find some blatant discrepancies in the above Jim_Mich response to James. I will do my best to address these points strictly on an impersonal level. To save space Jim's statements will be edited for brevity and in brackets.

[Ralph would from time to time make technical statements that were not true. It was very obvious from reading these statements that Ralph didn't know what he was talking about.]

The assessment of one persons point of view. That view being biased and impeding the gist of content.

{[Many times Ralph would offer to help forum members with construction of their wheels. In these offers he would say that he has many years experience working with gravity wheels.]

True and some what correct, only my offer implied that there design must prove worthy of a build at my discretion. I have many years experience in the pursuit of gravity wheels not "working with gravity wheels"...

[He would make it sound like he was some sort of expert in mechanical things. He even called himself an engineer at times. His bio says he is a retired maintenance engineer. Does that mean he was a janitor?]

No! I was not a janitor! I was gainfully employed at a hydro-electric facility. Responsible for updating, maintaining and the operation of fourteen 80 Megawatt generators. upon retirement in 1992 the compensation for my skill was valued at $32.72 per hour plus a very lucrative benefit package and performance incentives . A bit more than I think a janitor would expect.

[I don't know! But from reading Ralph's postings it was very clear that he lacked a proper engineering education. Most engineering is done using mathematical calculation. Ralph would state that he didn't think very much of calculations. He considered himself more of a "hands on" type of guy.]

My implied input regarding my educational background stated that I held certificates and not "sheepskins" So yes by social standards you could say that I lacked a proper engineering education. And yes I avoid math as much as possible.

A side note: I ask myself many times why numerous members spend time mathematically attempting to calculate velocity and/ or acceleration on Bessler's wheels, only knowing the outside physical diameter of the container? How and why does one attempt to achieve a conclusive answer when none of the inner factors are known. The math only tells you what a wheel of a given size will do providing the weights are where you assume them to be, at the radius. A trivial answer for a known perimeter with no bearing on that which we still do not know!

[It is my understanding that when members sent ideas to Ralph, then if Ralph thought they had merit he would build their wheel. Ralph has a very nice woodworking shop.]

True, only if they showed merit; I am also very proud of my metal working shop that both Working and retired machinists have been known to drool over.

[It is my understanding that Ralph attached strings to his offer of help in that if the wheel were to work then Ralph was to be named co-inventor on any patent application.]

Blatantly False!... My wording is that I work on a "contingency" basis. If I bring it to a patentable state, I expect a percentage of the return. At know time have I implied that I was to be designated as a co-inventor. That would only apply if I were to augment a failed submitted design into a self-sustainer with the acknowledgment of the submitter.

[This would be fraud, for only the true original inventor can obtain a patent.]

That is how I interpret the law and agree. I have never made any intentions or implications of evading this fact.

[So here we have an individual with a nice wood shop willing to help members build their wheels. Why should it bother me? I felt it deceitful for Ralph to represent himself as having superior engineering skills when it was obvious that he lacked said engineering skills.]

Your matter of opinion; I have never attempted to deceive anyone by overstating my ability's. I do not consider myself superior and as for educational engineering skills, I would consider them a hindrance as they teach that what we seek cannot be done. A sheepskin does not include "hands on experience". I hold certificates of learning in various fields recognizing me as a journeyman. Some include recognition and the right to teach such skills to apprentice's.

[It was also deceitful and unlawful for him to ask to be named co-inventor even if he added no new idea or concept to a member’s wheel.]

True; but you should have said "it would be deceitful" and if he added no new idea.

[Obviously it is none of my business what Ralph and other members do or agree to.]

If you would heed these words then you would be on the way of gaining my respect. Even then your input would be welcome as long as it is in the form of an opinion. It is your "it is this way and only this way and that is that" attitude that I find distasteful.

[Unfortunately the discussion degraded into a simple pissing match because I got totally piss off with Ralph.]

And that is when it become a personal endeavor.

[What most people don’t see is that my natural knowledge and aptitude for things mechanical is in the genius range. I don’t say this to flaunt it, but to raise a point. A couple times when I was young I took an employment test where they attempt to determine your mechanical aptitude. I’m sure some members have taken such tests. Both times the human resource person questioned me, asking if I had taken this test before or if someone had given me the answers. Never before had anyone gotten all the answers 100 percent right and finished the test in less time than allotted. Also high school mechanical aptitude tests put me in the 99th percentile.]

And this is part of the underlying problem; In ways we are of the same attributes. I will not go so far as to call myself a "genius" But I also took similar tests with the same results. I did however only score 97% on the Mechanical General classification tests when I joined the military.

[So when someone like Ralph comes along and tries to tell me that I’m wrong concerning something mechanical, well Ralph (as usual) just doesn’t know what he is talking about.]

Here lies the key of the issue: Do you realize what this implies. If it were to say "it is my opinion" Rather than making a blatant point that your belief must be excepted without question because you are an "almost genius" Is what I refer to as being egotistical. An inflated sense of ones owns importance also known as conceit.

[Then Ralph starts insulting me in numerous ways. He calls me belligerent and egotistical.]

True! I just did it again.

[He fills numerous postings attacking me. He twists the meaning of my words. For instance I said, “Ralph's posts make it quite clear that his 'experience' has not made him an expert.� My meaning was an expert in mechanical things.]

That is your opinion based on your interpretation, in other word that is your opinion not mine. I do not consider myself an expert in anything, I leave that terminology to my peers to judge. And to be deemed an "almost Genius" is only in my wildest dreams.

[He twists it around to mean expert in PM type things. He does this twisting of my words whenever I attempt to debate with him.]

I may be biased toward PM type things, but all this time I was under the impression PM things is what we discussed on this forum. But once again the word "expert" is of your gist not mine.

The next two paragraphs has been deleted as I feel it is only repetitive or reflects on personal issues.

[I will continue to address Ralph as “Wong Way Walf� but only when I spot one of his obvious errors. All Ralph needs do is respond in a polite and respectful manner instead of throwing insults at me.]

You know, I would like that! All it would require is to be polite when addressing my errors, with an open mind such as "IMO" rather than referring to them as absolute because only you hold the ultimate almost genius God like answer.

[If he is not serious and his erroneous post is supposed to be a joke then I suggest he put it in the off topic joke thread.]

The posted subject was was not erroneous and compatible with the topic title. I saw where it could also be of value to prove a point regarding a secondary issue. It's outcome was as anticipated.

The end!

Ralph

[axel]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 8138#48138 edit by scott: please don't quote entire posts

LOL


Have a nice day everyone!!

Axel

[rlortie]

FunWithGravity,

Instead of continueing to post everyone should just have scott put the site in an endless loop. the same ideas, the same arguments, over and over. just change the dates and names through some randon generator and noone would be the wiser.

It is my opinion that this substantiates the noted quote:

Perpetual motion is man chasing perpetual motion.

I cannot remember the authors name to give credit.

Thank you for your valued input regarding my Web page. I hope to add to it in the near future.

Ralph

[LustInBlack]

Wow, my signature is sooooo relevant to this situation, I must Reply !

[LustInBlack]

Seriously,

We need both of you here, and everyone have flaws..

For one, Ralph seem to give up on things quite fast without looking or thinking about the small and subtle details..

I experienced this once.

While Jim didn't give up on one of my ideas before, he even stated that it might work, before calculating more precisely and finding my mistake..
I really appreciated the effort Jim put into this idea I had.. It is the main reason why I respect Jim.. He gave a chance because he saw a possibility that he could not directly refute without more tinkering..


Ralph on the other hand knows how to build and how to feel the machine! .. That is a strong point too..

In my opinion, you have both your skills, and everybody here have their own skills.. Put that together and we are a strong team ..

What is lame in all of this, is that we don't really work in team, we all keep things in secret and do not share all experiments..

If it would happen, and we shared everything, I think we would have the wheel ...

[scott]

Thanks LIB, after some of the attacks on this website lately, your post made me smile :-)