letting go... a little bit ;P

[Fletcher]

Well explained Scott ! Here's my experience for what it is worth !

The very first wheel I built in my garage was almost exactly that design you describe. I still use the frame for other investigations. The diameter is 5 foot & it is made of steel square tubing & angle iron for rigidity on bicycle hubs for low friction turning. It used a sliding weight system (8 sets) that traded vertical distance for horizontal leverage as you describe. It was beautuful in simplicity & to look at.

That was where I got a very good grounding of what a closed loop system mean't & later (about the time Darren Houle spontaneously combusted) found a way to describe the system achieving position of least potential energy (the at rest position mid point - the keel) which had increasing positive & negative torque each side of zero torque point, which caused it to rotate backwards or forwards to settle at the at rest position. It did not matter how many arms or weight sets I used, I couldn't make it work.

The analogy is ... a car will coast (even accelerate) down a hill due gravity, but it can't with momentumn gained climb up to or over the next crest if it is the same height at which it started from.

Regards -Fletcher

[Oxygon]

The technique you don't like, is it the strings? Because I used sewing thread to minimize friction, and it doesn't really stretch either. Of course it's failure still has no significant bearing on your original device, I will look into attempting you original design.

the string will compromise the wheel... because (imo)... the delay due to weight catching up with the wheel itself... A "string bound" weight will initially resist its motion and a wobble effect may interfere, conversely a fixed assembly has little choice...

I will build a simple device tomorrow... I have narrowed down a list of available parts and suitable materials.

(finger-crossed)

Whether this "model" succeeds or fails... it'll be good to be rid of the question pertaining to it's present design...

Like I said in the beginning... It was an idea I could lose...

[Oxygon]

Well "building" has been postponed... Tomorrow (18th) is more conveinient...

I spent today (17th) driving visiting friends and family around town...

I have the weekend.

I did not spend all my time here just to pull a "TommyK" over on everyone...

Nothing personal TommyK...

[Jonathan]

If it interests anyone, I built another model, similar in form and function to the last, but without strings. The yellow rectangles are gears, seen edgewise, and where they intersect they engage. The blues lines are axles. The weights are numbered according to mass. Black lines are supports/frame. The axle comes out of the middle (toward you) and is attached via framework not shown in order to not interfere.

[Neo]

Hi Scott and Fletcher,

I have to disagree, I've been working on a device that is not a wheel but a single weight that's able to lift itself to it's starting position and slowing gain momentum reaching 0-45 RPM within 5 min of start. It does everything that you say can't be done. The device is quite simple, and the idea even simpler, shift the entire weight's COG yet keep the weight rotating and occilating.

I'm afraid that it is not Bessler's design and unable to do heavy lifting except to turn a generators shaft.

I will be going to Florida in 2 weeks were my father and I will build the model, test and film it in operation.

If all goes well I will report my findings here.

[Neo]

Hi Scott and Fletcher,

I have to disagree, I've been working on a device that is not a wheel but a single weight that's able to lift itself to it's starting position and slowing gain momentum reaching 0-45 RPM within 5 min of start. It does everything that you say can't be done. The device is quite simple, and the idea even simpler, shift the entire weight's COG yet keep the weight rotating and occilating.

I'm afraid that it is not Bessler's design and unable to do heavy lifting except to turn a generators shaft.

I will be going to Florida in 2 weeks were my father and I will build the model, test and film it in operation.

If all goes well I will report my findings here.

[Michael]

Fletch, Scott,

That's "one" of the things I've been hinting at on another thread. A four pound weight can lift sixteen pounds, and the sixteen pounds can still have a greater kinetic energy.

Regards,

Michael

[Jonathan]

Good luck Neo!

[Fletcher]

Hi Guys,

Neo - go for it buddy. I'm all ears & would be the first in line to say congratulations I assure you. Believe me, show me the error of my ways & open my eyes, I'd kinda like my life to move on to other things :-)

Musing somewhat here - sounds like you're describing a "batton twirling" arrangement where a center weight (say bar) is given impetus to start rotating. As it does so somehow you are arranging things so that as the bar is say horizontal the pivot/fulcrum is shifted to the opposite of the down-going-side & back again (timed oscillating fulcrum) to accelerate the rotational motion. Yep, if your've achieved it, that sure would be trading vertical for horizontal with no penalty ? :-)

Neo said <I'm afraid that it is not Bessler's design and unable to do heavy lifting except to turn a generators shaft.>

Predicted 45 RPM without load, that would impress me no end. I'd settle for that / drink to that :-) Good luck with the build !

Neo said <If all goes well I will report my findings here.>

Michael said <That's "one" of the things I've been hinting at on another thread. A four pound weight can lift sixteen pounds, and the sixteen pounds can still have a greater kinetic energy.>

WARNING - READ ON AT YOUR OWN RISK :

Can I make one general observation here on the "if the cap fits, wear it" basis.

In the spirit of Bessler Boards, IMHO long overdue, "Glasnost" how about sharing your insights at the appropriate time - here's the hard bit - even if it doesn't work out.

Not trying to put the "mocka" on anyone here ! I wish everyone success, just I'd genuinely like to discuss any failures as well. Not so I can be judgemental but so that I can learn from it, as hard as that might be for that person to face up to on this board should it happen.

You see, it's a matter of personal integrity to my way of thinking. Why do I say that ? People here emotionally invest in you & your ideas, often willingly becomming travelling companions of persons who may "tilt at windmills". They often have scant real "detail" on which to base their support. That should be acknowledged appropriately & respectfully & not shrugged off as pure "entertainment value" if all comes crashing down.

RANT ENDS :

[Oxygon]

WHEEL STATUS: INSUFFICIENT DATA - STRUCTURAL FAILURE

ANGER: What I feel right now...

As I have said before I can't build anything...

the wheel was easier to turn in the suggested rotation but the wobble kept intefering... the materials available were not sturdy (enough) to handle the weight shifting and hinges were (haphazard)...

I really need to "pull it together" and build a sufficient model to truly test this... since its instability is so finite...

Feel free to build it yourself... perhaps you can do better... I doubt you can do worse.

Until then I can make no determination as to its viability.

[Oxygon]

I know I can't prove otherwise...

But I still maintain that the only reaction/shift needed to overbalance the "Oxygon Wheel" is the horizontal set switch...!

I just can't physically prove it...

errr >:|

[etjoe]

I've tried a few scenarios including changing the weight of the yellow balls (heavier on the outside/lighter tangent) but at most I got half a rotation. Just right-click on Sim1.avi and save target.

http://www.kulonos.com/PMM

-e

[Oxygon]

I've tried a few scenarios including changing the weight of the yellow balls (heavier on the outside/lighter tangent) but at most I got half a rotation.

I like that you scared me...

But I noticed the error...

It's the exact problem I had worked thru long ago...

the difference in the inner(closest) weight location, to much distance variation to the axis...

I would "just by eye" assume that the distance varies by much as 23% from axis...

this is not good...

My oppinion as to the workability of the "Oxygon Wheel" is still secure...

[Fletcher]

Hi Oxygon,

I mocked up a facimile of etjoe's .avi file (for those that can't see what he built) on WM2D in about half an hour this afternoon. Take a look.

The first attachment is where it starts from, rotated 45 degrees off center by me. The second attachment shows where it ends up. It rotates left past the zero moment line & then changes direction back & forth until it settles at position of least potential as you see it there. I purposefully coloured the weights so you could see the low COG for this design. Both weight sets are the same mass.

Hope this is helpfull.

-Fletcher P.S. well done e !

EDIT: I let the sim run out for 2 hours, have swapped over the "finished position" attachment to show final resting position for this design.

[Neo]

Guys,

In the spirit of Oxygon letting go...

I'll give you just a little more info...

My design is based on a modified version of F. G. Woodard's Wheel
gif #1.

Oxygon you will be happy to know that I believe you are very close indeed to a Bessler type wheel. My reasoning you may ask is that your transitional state is nearly exactly my COG shift gif # 2

My design oscillates diagonally where your transitional state occurs.

John Collins you will also be happy to know that my design needs friction and gravity to even start.

A half pound weight will accelerate from 0-20 RPM and stay at 20 RPM in a near vacuum.

Why a vacuum? My reasoning is taken from a scientific toy called a Crookes' radiometer. A vacuum with little air resistance help the vanes as they spin so does my device benift from this.

Yet this is not Bessler's Wheel, yet I believe it is Bessler's principle, a diagonal shifting...oscillation of the COG of the wheel that causes it to turn.

So Oxygon build your wheel exactly like you've envisioned it...no different.