So just what was a "warped board"?

[axel]

"Excuse me jumping in here, but professor Christian Wolf described a 'warped board' as being visible through a slit in the wheel's covering. It depends on what German word was translated as 'warped'. Its difficult to know exactly what Wolf saw - and whether it was relevant i.e. was it a false trail left by Bessler. "

JC

So what was the German word that was translated as "warped"?

It could mean, cupped, warped, bent, crooked, curved...

Axel

[rlortie]

Axel,

It could mean, cupped, warped, bent, crooked, curved...

You forgot one term used in describing a non-straight board that may or may not be in the German language. It is called "Wind"... A board my have wind caused by irregular growth or irregular drying (seasoning) it for use.

Ralph

[Quartz]

Hi
Axel

warp : to turn or twist out of or as if out of shape; especially : to twist or bend out of a plane b

deform distort contort

Ken

[Stewart]

I can't find either a scan of the original letter or a transcription. Do you have one John? On orffyre.com the quote is attributed to: "Christian Wolff, letter to Leibniz, examination of Merseburg wheel, 19th December, 1715." Is this definitely correct and the date? I found a transcription of a letter from Wolff to Leibnitz on that exact day but it had nothing to do with the quote in question.

If I were to guess though, I'd say the word used was 'krumm' - and I think it would probably be better translated as 'curved' or 'bent'. I could of course be completely wrong - we really need to see the original!

Stewart

[Quartz]

Hi

Interesting, maybe the board was twisted as to guide something in a circular motion like a helix. Say they found a peculiar corkscrew with gears amongst his possessions after death.

Ken

[John Collins]

I'll check this out and get back to you all

JC

[Quartz]

Hi
I got this of the internet

warped
adj. verworfen; verzogen; verzerrt

warp
v. verbiegen, verzerren, winden; sich verbiegen; entstellen; sich verdrehen; abschleppen

http://www.babylon.com/definition/warped/German


Ken

[greendoor]

It's easy to assume that curved boards refer to a 3D curve, for rolling cyclindrical weights. However - perhaps the word used refered to 2D curves ... I think of the references to a Peacock's tail - which makes me think of a ladies folding fan, or perhaps the bellows of a pipe organ pump ...

A folding fan arrangement could allow for matching differing rotational speeds - perhaps an accelerating/deceleration motion with a constant rotary motion. Also a hard/soft dynamic ... Such an arrangement wouldn't necessarily need 'curved' boards - they could be triangular wedges - but they could easily have been rounded at the top, to reduce wind loss. Or maybe curved a little to facilitate folding without impact ...

Do we hear reports of rolling noises? Aren't they more described as impact noises?

I tend to believe the torque came from a constant OOB. Falling weights don't contribute to OOB. However - I suspect Bessler used the trick of an OOB wheel that was designed with one extra weight that was constantly "in the air" by design ... so when the weight fell, it caused another weight higher up to fall and repeat the cycle ...

[John Collins]

I quoted from a German researcher who wrote to me back in 1994.

His words were "Wolff sent a long, detailed and very favourable account to Leibniz. The correspondence between Leibnitz and Wolff was published in 1860 in 'Gerhardt, C.I. 'Briefwechsel zwischen Leibniz und Wolff. Halle, 1860', but this letter was omitted and other letters which mentioned Bessler were expurgated from the edition.'

This is why you don't find any mention of Bessler in any of Wolff's published letters. I too, have looked on the internet and read the published letters between the two men and failed to find any mention of Bessler. You can understand why these letters were omitted; they appear to suggest support for something that their peers had rejected as being unscientific.

The researcher read the original letters but I no longer am able to reach him to get the originals. I shall keep looking for internet copies and post anything I find.

EDIT PS The exact words from my correspondents letter quoting Wolff go, 'During rotation , it is clearly heard that the weights hit against the planks. I was able to observe those plans through a slit. They are slightly elongated'.

I'm not sure where the word 'warped' came from. If I wrote it please accept my apologies. I can't believe I made such an error, if I did.

And yes the date of the letter was Dec. 19th, 1715, Stewart.

There is a website which as at least one of the Wolff/Leibniz letters. It is at http://www.nlb-hannover.de/Leibniz/Leib ... enIIIA.pdf

JC

[DrWhat]

What the !@#$% does 'elongated' mean? I prefered the apparently incorrect quote 'warped': at least I could visualise the meaning. 'But elongated'? What does that mean? Of course it means "made longer", but does that mean that the planks were extending and retracting? Or were two planks nailed together as Bessler ran out of wood (I jest of course!). Hmmm, nothing is given away... Maybe they were just long boards?

[Stewart]

Hi John

I had the document you posted the link to, and found it odd the letter wasn't there but there was a letter from Wolff to Leibnitz on the same day.

This is why you don't find any mention of Bessler in any of Wolff's published letters.

That's not true - there are a number of letters about Bessler in Wolff's published letters. However, you might be right about that particular letter having been removed for the reasons you mentioned.

Weird about the confusion over the word 'elongated' and 'warped' - we might as well forget that quote as being accurate/reliable information now until we can find the original letter or a transcription of it. I'm wondering if a translation appeared somewhere else such as Dircks' "Perpetuum Mobile" and that's where the word 'warped' came from - I'll check later.

Stewart

[axel]

I quoted from a German researcher who wrote to me back in 1994.

His words were "Wolff sent a long, detailed and very favourable account to Leibniz. The correspondence between Leibnitz and Wolff was published in 1860 in 'Gerhardt, C.I. 'Briefwechsel zwischen Leibniz und Wolff. Halle, 1860', but this letter was omitted and other letters which mentioned Bessler were expurgated from the edition.'

This is why you don't find any mention of Bessler in any of Wolff's published letters. I too, have looked on the internet and read the published letters between the two men and failed to find any mention of Bessler. You can understand why these letters were omitted; they appear to suggest support for something that their peers had rejected as being unscientific.

The researcher read the original letters but I no longer am able to reach him to get the originals. I shall keep looking for internet copies and post anything I find.

EDIT PS The exact words from my correspondents letter quoting Wolff go, 'During rotation , it is clearly heard that the weights hit against the planks. I was able to observe those plans through a slit. They are slightly elongated'.

I'm not sure where the word 'warped' came from. If I wrote it please accept my apologies. I can't believe I made such an error, if I did.

And yes the date of the letter was Dec. 19th, 1715, Stewart.

There is a website which as at least one of the Wolff/Leibniz letters. It is at http://www.nlb-hannover.de/Leibniz/Leib ... enIIIA.pdf

JC

So You're saying then, that the letter that contains the "elongated" board reference existed as recently as 1994, and that the person who read the letter cannot be found, and that the contents generally of Wolfe's letters have been withheld by those in posession of them. Right?

How come we're just finding out the "warped board" is a misnomer?

Maybe Scott will know where the "warped" came from.

Also it seems mighty fast from the time this question (about the warped board) was asked, for you to say that the researcher can't be found. So you must have tried before.

I have always suspected that information was being hidden by someone somewhere. It's obvious. Wolfe is quoted on several points here on Besslerwheel and elsewhere, but surely he would have gone into more detail on other points to someone like Liebniz. Like if you talk about your new car to a friend, you don't just mention how it looks or sounds. If the other person is as mechanically inclined as you, you will get into performance, displacement, maintenance,etc.

Axel

[hansvonlieven]

"Excuse me jumping in here, but professor Christian Wolf described a 'warped board' as being visible through a slit in the wheel's covering. It depends on what German word was translated as 'warped'. Its difficult to know exactly what Wolf saw - and whether it was relevant i.e. was it a false trail left by Bessler. "

JC

So what was the German word that was translated as "warped"?

It could mean, cupped, warped, bent, crooked, curved...

Axel

From what I have seen, the letters between Leibnitz and Wolf were in Latin, not German.

Hans von Lieven

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=mDY ... t#PPA98,M1

[axel]

Hans

I love quibbling. Then what was the LATIN word. Ok?

One thing, here in the US we had a Civil War General named Nathan Bedford Forrest.

At a party one evening, a lady asked him why the hair of his beard was all dark like a young man, and that on top his head was all gray.

He replied, "It's because I use my brain more than my jaws."

Think about it.

Axel

[hansvonlieven]

G'day Axel,

There seems to be a problem locating the actual letter, so I cannot tell what, if anything, Wolf said.

I was responding to the speculation about what German word could have led to this translation when the actual correspondence was in Latin.

See, you aren't the only quibbler :-)

Hans von Lieven