here comes the rain again

[frettsy]

there is a large tank (T1) made of a material permeable only by light. this represents the "world".
inside that tank, on a stand, is a medium tank (T2) made of whatever (glass?). this is full of water. it has an open hole at the top and a switch opening at the bottom.
inside that tank is a small tank (T3) made of material just denser than water. this is on tracks running down T2. it has switch openings at the bottom and top.

T3 starts at the top, with both openings open. it fills up with water, sinking to the bottom of T2. when it hits the bottom, its top opening is switched closed. T2's switch is opened, allowing only the water inside T3 to drain out the bottom of T2 into T1. after it drains, air fills up inside T3, and it again starts to rise. at this point, both of its switches are closed, and T2's switch is closed. when T3 rises to the top, its switches are opened, allowing it to re-fill with water. repeat.

the problem, here, is that eventually we will run out of water - it will all be in the bottom of T1. this was the hardest part - trying to get the water back into or keep it in the system. but, never to fear... evaporation! this will carry the water back to the top, and it can condensate and drain back into T2. that's why T1 must be impermeable except for light.

will this work? is it less efficient than solar power?

I realize this isn't a true PM, I guess it's a "natural" PM. but still!

[hansvonlieven]

I am not following your reasoning, the bit with the "world" being only permeable by light has got me stuffed. What for? The rest is equally incomprehensible.

Even if it would work, there are better ways to build a heat engine than this. Your idea relies on evaporation and condensation, which requires a heat differential.

Look at dunking birds and Stirling engines.

Hans von Lieven

[frettsy]

permeable by light in order to allow evap, but not let any water vapor escape. the rest is equally incomprehensible? really? how can I explain it more clearly?

as far as I can see, drinking birds need an infinite amount of water to continue moving. and the Stirling engines are regenerative but lossy, right?

[hansvonlieven]

Light does not evaporate water, heat does.

Hans von Lieven

[frettsy]

I apologize, that's what I meant. I guess to clarify I should say "light AND its heat". or maybe just "heat". I had assumed it would be obvious but that's what I get for assuming. the intent is to use the sun.

[jim_mich]

Just Build a Solar Powered Water Wheel...

Build a box out of Styrofoam insulation sheets. Put a layer of heat absorbing material in the bottom such as steel, concrete, plaster of Paris, or sand. Place a shallow concave aluminum or copper sheet metal pan on the top and in contact with of the heat absorbing material. Place a very thin water wheel slightly off center in the middle with its axle extending out one or both sides of the box. Place a small amount of water in the pan. Maybe add some bleach to prevent mold and mildew from growing. Cover the box with flexible clear plastic sheet. Glue a weight in the middle to stretch the plastic so that it sags down. You might need to pre-stretch the plastic a little. Set the box in the sun.

The sun shines through the clear plastic and warms the water, the metal sheet and the heat absorbing material. The water evaporates into the air inside the box. It condenses on the cooler plastic at the top and runs to the center where it drips off and falls onto the water wheel thus turning the wheel. When the sun goes down and the outside air cools off the clear plastic becomes cooler and condensation continues with the heat absorbing material continuing to warm the water.

Optionally the water wheel could be outside the box with a drip tube catching the water and directing it to the wheel and then a catch pan directing the water back into the box. The wheel should be enclosed to prevent evaporation of water out of the system. This tube adds friction but it moves the wheel out of the sunlight path. This is more complicated but it’s debatable if it helps or hinders.

[frettsy]

that is a mass simplification of my idea. I like it!

EDIT: you could totally make that a closed system inside the wheel. just put the water and the water catches on the inside of the wheel! the heat catch (metal block) could still be outside/under the wheel.

[DrWhat]

I bet a solar cell could turn it faster, but I like the idea. Someone should build it as a novelty and post it on YouTube. It may even get on television as a "perpetual motion invention". Maybe only on a morning show!

[frettsy]

agreed. I think though, that if you could find a way to accelerate the heating and cooling process (such as using different elements? another gas? I don't know much chemistry) that you could get it to turn faster?

[frettsy]

adding to the idea.. how about a bunch of wheels in succession that the water turns on its way down? the water could pool at the top on a weight-sensitive release mechanism, and when it was heavy enough the water falls, turning the wheels on the way down. repeat. you could technically put infinite amount of wheels there, or at least go as high as the water's condensation point begins...

[jim_mich]

The energy released by the falling water is the same when using multiple wheels as when using one large wheel. The initial start up torque caused by the inertial momentum of a large wheel verses many small wheels might be different. Also a single large wheel will have less friction because of using only one axle. Once in motion the energy output is the same with a single large wheel as with many small ones. There is no advantage to having the water pool and then releasing it except that the output becomes intermittent. If the system is large enough it should produce a steady trickle of water. Use a very thin wheel with very small pockets that are sized to use the steady trickle of water.

Of course you could use small "buckets" on a chain or belt hanging from a sprocket or pulley.

[greendoor]

Have a look at the Minto Wheel

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/minto.html

This is looking to be the best free energy device so far - but obviously not what Bessler was tapping into.

If you want to build a Minto wheel, consider using some buried pipes in the ground for a warm source at night (maybe switch to solar during the day). For the cold sink, I think a reflective box that could radiate the heat to a cold part of space (literally). Even in daytime you can still point it at a cold part of space. Use reflectors to bounce the sun off it during the day - to keep the top part cooler than the bottom part.

[jim_mich]

Greendoor,

Take a look at my website where I post copies of the original Minto Wheel articles from the March, May and July 1976 issues of The Mother Earth News.

http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/MintoWheel.html

[frettsy]

Have a look at the Minto Wheel

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/minto.html

This is looking to be the best free energy device so far - but obviously not what Bessler was tapping into.

If you want to build a Minto wheel, consider using some buried pipes in the ground for a warm source at night (maybe switch to solar during the day). For the cold sink, I think a reflective box that could radiate the heat to a cold part of space (literally). Even in daytime you can still point it at a cold part of space. Use reflectors to bounce the sun off it during the day - to keep the top part cooler than the bottom part.

for the cold sink I was thinking something even simpler, a white canvas draped over the top! :)

I'm not totally understanding how the Minto wheel works. the hot water comes back out into the cold water?

[frettsy]

bump on the Minto wheel question.

PS with this water wheel couldn't you harness the "steam" on the way up as well? I'd really like to see someone make this!