Mak
Bessler said From portal:clues - BesslerWiki
Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve. A few years ago, I learned all about this the hard way. And then the truth of the old proverb came home to be that one has to learn through bitter experience.
Ken
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Excess Weight
Moderator: scott
re: Excess Weight
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
Hi Quartz
When you refer to Bessler saying "excess weight" do you mean the part in DT that talks about the interior of the wheel? I'll assume that you do for the moment...
The word he uses there is 'Uberwicht' - the modern equivalent being 'Ãœbergewicht'. It translates as 'overweight', 'overbalance', 'preponderance', 'excess weight' - but I think excess weight is not the best choice of translation, although to be honest in this particular passage I don't think any of those words are particularly good because I don't think the word is necessarily referring to the overbalance of the wheel here. Elsewhere Bessler uses the words 'Uberwucht' and 'Uberwage/Uberwaage' to refer to overbalance. In the context of the sentence the meaning does become clear, but you have to know that the word 'Uberwicht' was a term used by clockmakers (and other mechanics) to refer to a driving weight that descends on a rope. In that passage Bessler describes the traditional use of weights descending on rope which require raising again once they've reached the floor, but goes on to say that his own 'Uberwicht' (driving weights) are not like that and don't require restitution, but are in fact themselves the perpetual mobile (or the essential and constituent parts of it). I'll discuss this part of DT in more detail soon, but I hope this helps for now.
All the best
Stewart
When you refer to Bessler saying "excess weight" do you mean the part in DT that talks about the interior of the wheel? I'll assume that you do for the moment...
The word he uses there is 'Uberwicht' - the modern equivalent being 'Ãœbergewicht'. It translates as 'overweight', 'overbalance', 'preponderance', 'excess weight' - but I think excess weight is not the best choice of translation, although to be honest in this particular passage I don't think any of those words are particularly good because I don't think the word is necessarily referring to the overbalance of the wheel here. Elsewhere Bessler uses the words 'Uberwucht' and 'Uberwage/Uberwaage' to refer to overbalance. In the context of the sentence the meaning does become clear, but you have to know that the word 'Uberwicht' was a term used by clockmakers (and other mechanics) to refer to a driving weight that descends on a rope. In that passage Bessler describes the traditional use of weights descending on rope which require raising again once they've reached the floor, but goes on to say that his own 'Uberwicht' (driving weights) are not like that and don't require restitution, but are in fact themselves the perpetual mobile (or the essential and constituent parts of it). I'll discuss this part of DT in more detail soon, but I hope this helps for now.
All the best
Stewart
Last edited by Stewart on Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Here's my own translation:Quartz wrote:Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve.
because many a mobile maker thinks,
if their things just guide themselves
out a little further here
than there, o! so it will just run;
I think the "guide themselves" means that he is not contradicting himself when he previously talks about overbalance. He just seems to be warning us away from the simple rolling-ball type designs etc. that most mobilists of the time experimented with. Bessler states quite clearly on a number of occasions that his wheel is overbalanced - that's what causes it to revolve. However, there are two ways to overbalance a wheel as Bill says - one is to move weights in and out between the axle and rim, and the other is to shift weights around the rim. Obviously the part we're all trying to figure out is how to perpetually maintain the overbalance.
Stewart
re: Excess Weight
Stewart
Yes I was referring to DT, thank you for clearing that up; I must say I view this as a set back. This tells me that I cannot take the translations that are currently in place to be correct. A single word can throw the whole meaning of a sentence. What a shame that we may never know exactly what it was he has written.
Ken
Yes I was referring to DT, thank you for clearing that up; I must say I view this as a set back. This tells me that I cannot take the translations that are currently in place to be correct. A single word can throw the whole meaning of a sentence. What a shame that we may never know exactly what it was he has written.
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
re: Excess Weight
Ken, even if not exactly, I think we can know what Bessler meant most of the time. One of the benefits of having more than one translation is that we can constantly check and refine our currently available data. To that end I think we owe Stewart a debt of gratitude for making his own considerable translation efforts freely available to us.
The translations currently available from John may not be perfect, but I'm sure he has done the very best he can. They're obviously a window into Bessler's world that we would not otherwise have. IMO, revealing errors and inconsistencies in John's available translations is a positive step forward in our collective research and any review process should not be seen as some fundamental undermining of their intrinsic value.
The translations currently available from John may not be perfect, but I'm sure he has done the very best he can. They're obviously a window into Bessler's world that we would not otherwise have. IMO, revealing errors and inconsistencies in John's available translations is a positive step forward in our collective research and any review process should not be seen as some fundamental undermining of their intrinsic value.
re: Excess Weight
Bill
You say that the translation as they are may not be perfect well then I ‘am very much in agreement with you as I have looked back at many of Stewart’s post to see that he has made corrections or improvements, I also agree that having more than one translation will correct and refine the current data. Stewart thank you for your hard work in making available to us your translation’s we do indeed owe you a debt of gratitude, as for you John Collins will none of this would have been possible with out you and to show my gratitude I bought three of your books witch I enjoyed vary much.
Ken
You say that the translation as they are may not be perfect well then I ‘am very much in agreement with you as I have looked back at many of Stewart’s post to see that he has made corrections or improvements, I also agree that having more than one translation will correct and refine the current data. Stewart thank you for your hard work in making available to us your translation’s we do indeed owe you a debt of gratitude, as for you John Collins will none of this would have been possible with out you and to show my gratitude I bought three of your books witch I enjoyed vary much.
Ken
All material motion requires a source of energy, a body to store the energy, and the energy of motion.
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re: Excess Weight
Thank you Ken.
As I've said before, when I commissioned Mike Senior to translate everything I gave him, he asked me back in about 1995 did I want a literal translation or did I want his interpretation of what Bessler said, and at the time I didn't know what would be the best way to do it. I certainly never expected the exact words to be pored over and examined under a microscope. I had no idea what was in the text and whether it would be of any use or interest, so a readable translation seemed to me the best option. In retrospect I think I made the right decision because the books read in a more enjoyable way than if they had been written as literal translations and one had to struggle through text written as Stewart has demonstrated above.
In the end Stewart and Hans and others have thrown additional light on the meanings I have first exposed to the light of day and I am grateful to them for their sterling efforts, particularly you, Stewart.
JC
As I've said before, when I commissioned Mike Senior to translate everything I gave him, he asked me back in about 1995 did I want a literal translation or did I want his interpretation of what Bessler said, and at the time I didn't know what would be the best way to do it. I certainly never expected the exact words to be pored over and examined under a microscope. I had no idea what was in the text and whether it would be of any use or interest, so a readable translation seemed to me the best option. In retrospect I think I made the right decision because the books read in a more enjoyable way than if they had been written as literal translations and one had to struggle through text written as Stewart has demonstrated above.
In the end Stewart and Hans and others have thrown additional light on the meanings I have first exposed to the light of day and I am grateful to them for their sterling efforts, particularly you, Stewart.
JC
Bill, Quartz, John - you're most welcome - I'm just glad I can help, and hope eventually it leads to someone solving the wheel!
John - I also think you made the right decision at the time, particularly as you had no idea what the text actually contained. I remember the first time I read your book and I thoroughly enjoyed the way the story read - a more exact translation would not have been so enjoyable to read for a first introduction to the Bessler story. Now it's just a case of refining the important areas that might help us with the wheel.
Thanks John for all your hard work in researching Bessler, and thanks to you and Bill for all the encouragement you've given me with my own research efforts.
All the best
Stewart
John - I also think you made the right decision at the time, particularly as you had no idea what the text actually contained. I remember the first time I read your book and I thoroughly enjoyed the way the story read - a more exact translation would not have been so enjoyable to read for a first introduction to the Bessler story. Now it's just a case of refining the important areas that might help us with the wheel.
Thanks John for all your hard work in researching Bessler, and thanks to you and Bill for all the encouragement you've given me with my own research efforts.
All the best
Stewart