Bessler morality in question

[graham]

Thanks Jim.
I already had this site in my "favorites" but had not read it thoroughly .

I wonder where Dr Ramesh Menaria got his information from?

Graham

PS. I just sent him an email asking him where this info came from.

[Quartz]

Bill wrote
(“Ken, morals aren't required in order to know the difference between truth and lie�)


Of course not, but it plays a roll in weather you believe absent of any ‘evidence� based on immoral actions, in the likelihood of ones honesty.



Bill wrote
(“Whether someone tells the truth or not isn't affected by what I believe�)

Isn’t that what I said. :)


Bill wrote
(“they either tell the truth or they tell a lie.�)

Indeed


Bill wrote
(“In the case of Bessler, I think we might fairly conclude that he was not above deception�)

Grate I see we agree. :)


Bill wrote
(“Morals obviously come with points of view that can vary with the weather, or the justification.�)


Did I not say it varied with the individuals?



Bill wrote
(“But the question you pose is can we assess the truthfulness of Bessler's clues by judging his documented actions in the world�)

Isn’t that what were doing.


Bill wrote
(“However, Bessler would have known that his own written descriptions of his wheels would be subject to close scrutiny once he had secured a sale and his secret was revealed. He would not want the buyer (probably powerful upper class) demanding their money back due to his written accounts being deemed untruthful�)

Well He could have said in was necessary, as to protect the principle of his wheel, makes you wonder why he went above and beyond in ridiculing his enemies:) as this would have been seen by many as justification.


Bill wrote
(“I think he would never be untruthful in his written descriptions (marketing) for fear of losing both his one-shot financial reward and the secret he had sacrificed so much to achieve.�)

Will Ill let the man speak for himself.


Bessler said
(“They got no word of truth from me. I got to be very good at hiding the truth�)


Ken

[Quartz]

Bill
I have nothing against you, surly there must be some common grounds for us both, as I have made a valid argument. this has been most stimulating and I hope its been as much for you.

Ken

[AB Hammer]

Bessler said
(“They got no word of truth from me. I got to be very good at hiding the truth�)

Ken

This statement from Bessler tells me that only due to trying to protect what is his. He learned to go against his nature, and learned how to deceive for his protection. This does not make him immoral, but human.

[Quartz]

Alan said
(“This statement from Bessler tells me that only due to trying to protect what is his. He learned to go against his nature, and learned how to deceive for his protection.�)

I could not agree with you more, and in the mater of morality the value you place on it as an individual, depends on how you weigh it against your own code of ethics and it really becomes a mater of your own opinion.

Ken

[Mak#1]

Something that really gets to me is the fact that history has recorded Bessler as a fraud, But on the other hand the Marquis of Worcester escapes such notice by authors such as Henry Dirks who blasts everyone and anything to do with PM, and Ord-Hume who only lightly suggests it probably would not work, but on the other hand comes out and calls Bessler a fraud. Go figure!!!

[AB Hammer]

Mak#1

For some reason people feel big by putting others down. But you don't slap the face of the man who has an executioner either.

[ovyyus]

Bill
I have nothing against you, surly there must be some common grounds for us both, as I have made a valid argument. this has been most stimulating and I hope its been as much for you.

Ken, of course it's of interest to me, I don't make a habit of wasting my time on matters of no interest. The common ground for us is clearly our common interest in Bessler and his wheel. Glad to hear you no longer have issues with my input on your interesting thread.

Will Ill let the man speak for himself.

Bessler said
(“They got no word of truth from me. I got to be very good at hiding the truth�)

To understand what Bessler meant you should define the context in which he made this statement. Who does he refer to as "they"? Statements taken out of context are often inaccurate in meaning and unfair to the author.

Jim, I can't find any reference to support Ramesh Menaria's story about Bessler's maid seeing him walking home with a wooden scissor, as described on the link you provided. Even if true I find it hard to imagine Bessler walking around with an important wheel component in hand for all to see! I'm sure we've discussed this author and his website before. With no supporting references I guess we should treat it as a fictional account? Good story though :D

[bluesgtr44]

Hey all...first off, I've been gone the last week with my lovely wife on a much needed and deserved vacation. So, to Scott....We went to a little town called Gunnison right at the tip of Blue Mesa Lake in Colorado. WOW! Just WOW! It is mind blowing with beauty and a very humbling experience...If you are familiar with this, Scott....you understand what I mean. I can recommend this to anyone wanting to see the most natural beauty of the Rockies. Nuff about that!

I think most of the folks here know I highly dislike trying to work these literary nightmare "clues" Bessler lays out. Going through all the publications and just trying to draw connections, isn't worth my time. Having read all the publications, mainly PM:AAMS, I find that the witness descriptions are the most valuable peices of information because he had to demonstrate his wheels....and this could not be sadly poeticized...what an abysmal peice of work that was. The people making the notes as to the performance of his wheels had no reason to lie to, manipulate or deceive anyone in their collection of information. There is just too much evidence to the side of Bessler not wanting to give up anything he didn't have to....so, these "clues"...IMHO, are very questionable and he has even stated as much and for reasons we all understand. If the solution was really that simple....he almost had to be purposely confusing.

The best information lies with those witness descriptions. He had no control over these people and what they wrote.These already tell us the end result....we just have to, at the very least....see what it might take to achieve that. I'm not going to beat the drum again on some of this. There are almost all the exerpts on these witness descriptions on "Steve's Street...." if any of you don't have the books I highly recommend them and John Collins can help you with that. BTW, John...I need that next book!

When you read the descriptions and then actually try to put it into a perspective of reality....it takes those designs in MT and makes them the norm of what we see being tried....over and over again. This is not what he had discovered, you know....a simple way of moving a weight further out while another just moved a little further in. I mean, read these results! He states it was driven by weights....so, he evidently had an imbalance...a perponderance....of weight. If it isn't done by the methods we have failed at for the last umpteen thousand years....we have to stop trying to do that.

I have also mentioned that if one believes it all turns around together, at the same speed....take your latest design and spin it manually up to about 40-50 rpm's and tell us what it looks like. OK, so what's missing? What's not keeping up? When did CF kick in and lock your weights to the rim? We know how they ran....we have witness descriptions that ole' Bessler couldn't control. He could, however control....."greed is an evil root...". There's just not much there for me when I can read a person of Christian Wolf's status tell just what the end result of that demonstration was....but, that's just me.


Steve

[scott]

Sorry this is off topic but I want to respond to Steve. Funny coincidence, I took my kids camping on the south rim of the Black Canyon of the Gunnison just a couple of months ago. The camping was great and we got to visit some relatives on the Western Slope.

http://www.nps.gov/blca/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Cany ... ional_Park

A picture of my kids out on the catwalk is attached. It was spectacular!

I sure love living in Colorado.

[bluesgtr44]

Breath taking....really! I just can't get enough of this place when the weather is nice. Here's one....thanks for sharing, Scott!


Steve

[bluesgtr44]

Sorry for the off-subject. This is a worthy post and worthy question....that's why I choose to work more earnestly with the results as documented by eyewitnesses. Do not think there aren't worthy tidbits in some of what Bessler might mention....some of his exerpts are well worth the time and effort. It's just that the approach to a lot of the "hidden clues" are not an endeavor that I find myself very good at....so, I work with what I can relate to from an engineering perspective....what did it do? I have some information from eyewitnesses that supposedly had no reason to lie, connive, deceive or manipulate. Bessler did!


Steve

[greendoor]

Bessler's secret - like any new technology - could have been employed for military purposes. If you study The Art of War, you will realise just how fragile an army really is - and any new technology that gives you an edge (of any sort, especially energy) is worth a king's ransom. Working Bessler wheels would have given any ruler a huge advantage over their enemies. The need for secrecy should be very obvious.

The money he was asking for was a lot, but a fair price. And his stated objective was to establish a university, based on his religious and scientific principles.

I think his conduct has to be viewed in light of the seriousness of what he was really proposing. This was war on many fronts - spiritual and physical.

If you know the scriptures that Bessler would have lived by - there are many hero's of the faith that are rated as God's holy men who did some very dodgy, deceptive things their battle for God's chosen people. It's a very interesting subject on it's own - just what exactly is morality?

Study the life of King David (the bible says that David was "a man after God's own heart"). David killed tens of thousands of men in a most bloody fashion. His exploits and deceptions are legendary. For example: when caught by Saul's men, he once pretented to be a dribbling idiot. They let him go, because his performance was so convincing.

Even in the Christian Gospels, there is the story of the "unjust steward" who was accused of wasting his employer's goods. He knew he was going to be sacked - so what he did was very devious. He approached all the debtors of his employer, and agreed to accept half their debt in full payment. The reason he did this was to win a lot of favor and public support, which he was going to need after his employer sacked him.

Strangely: Luke 16:8 "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely".

People who understand little about the Bible and the teachings of Jesus really don't have much understanding about what it's all about. Jesus was misunderstood and killed by the religious "moral" people of his day - and things are no different today.

Who would Jesus bomb?

Anyway - just saying that Bessler may very well have been a true servant of God. Life is just not that simple - despite what the televangelists might want you to think, as you thrust your dollars into their sticky fingers..

And of course the other big issue that a Christian believer would understand is that the boundaries of countries, and the release of inventions and information is tightly controlled by God himself. Very often he gives signs and foreknowledge and big clues - but ultimately, if the time is not ready, no man can force it to happen. What has been pre-determined has to happen - and there are limits and boundaries to our free-will.

Of course - not everyone has that point of view. I'm addressing Christian believers, as Bessler was a Christian believer. Just trying to explain his reasons and perhaps justification for some of his apparantly dodgy practices.

If he was genuine, I believe we will find in time that he never outright lied. God himself is known to be very economical with the truth. He has explained clearly that none of us can see things very clearly, and He keeps many things from us because we aren't ready to handle the truth.

[bluesgtr44]

Hey GD...I don't think he outright lied. I do however, think he had to be a bit manipulative with informaion to protect a very simple secret....one that could make or break him. His anger at the 3 villians is noted well and he knew they were just waiting for some small nugget of info that would lead them to the solution. He had to be careful....he wasn't lying in the sense that one would see the deciet for evil reasons...he was protecting his right....to collect just reward for his art.


Steve

[John Collins]

Further to Doctor Menares' site, his account has to be a fictionalised one. It simply doesn't match the historical records. There's a lot of new information concerning the maid and she was no saint, she had been imprisoned twice before her employees, Bessler's father-in-law foisted her on poor old Bessler. She had been involved in infanticide and taken part in black magic rituals. She was a witness to illegal things that Bessler's mother-in-law had been involved in and was imprisoned once to shut her up as she was known to be a gossip. I don't think Bessler knew what he was letting himself in for when he agreed to take her with him and his new bride.

JC