Bessler wheel principle solved?

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Chad
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Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by Chad »

I must appologise in advance for the length that this post will be..sorry about that.

the content of this post isnt fact but my theory of the wheel and the principle of how and why it could work!, i thought long and hard whether to post this for various reasons, i decided to put it out there for everyone just in case it works or may lead to a working wheel, im not a selfish person by nature and i don't want to start being one now.


Ok, like most ive thought of every conceivable way to get the wheel rotating and keep rotating but i have hit all the walls
that everybody else has hit, then i bought the AP book from john collins and also MT book and read from start to finish.

I reached the point were the infamous metaphor is printed and tried to understand what he may be trying to explain, also the picture at the end of the
book preceded by the biblical verses, i may be able to shed some light on this also!.

i will concentrate on only a small portion of the metaphor below. "thanks to john Collins"

A wheel appears on the scene - is it really a wheel,

for it does not have the normal type of rim. It revolves, but
without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind,
or springs. Seen sideways or full-face it is as resplendent as a
peacock's tail. It turns to the right and to the left; it spins around
in any possible direction, whether laden or empty.

All things belong to one of the three kingdoms (animal, vegetable,
matter) and - you have the physical evidence in front of you.
Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will
soon come to a standstill - the qualities of the elements are
necessary to keep things going. Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are
ready to join in any battle. Even the things we eat do not lose their
elemental influence - for it spreads itself through every limb and
sinew of our bodies. A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound,
for it is designed thus. Poltergeists often wander freely through
locked doors.

Now there are certain parts of this metaphor i would like to concentrate on as i feel that they may be relevant, also the at the end of the AP book the strange picture is something else i would like to discuss.


Now bessler talks about how his wheel is resplendant as a peacocks tail, i looked through the MT book and the only drawing that was anything near a peacocks tail was drawing number 15 !.

He then talks about all things belong to 1 of 3 kingdoms!, could this be a link to drawing number 13?....hold that thought!.

We move on to "Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will
soon come to a standstill - the qualities of the elements are
necessary to keep things going", ok so this refers to alchemy.

Salt = Salt is known as the "contractive force" .

Sulfur = was used to denote the "expansive force".

Mercury = represented the "integrative force".

This would indicate that the wheel uses expansive, contractive with and integrative force for it to function!.

ok next we have what i think is the most important part of the device and that is described by "Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are
ready to join in any battle", i think this part of the metaphor relates to the picture at the end of the AP book!, i studied the planets Mars Saturn and Jupiter and took measurements of there diameter's i then scaled these down and overlaid them to descover they look like the picure below

Image

wow this looks very much like the center of the picture in the AP book seen below,

Image

so now i search the whole of the MT book looking for this same picture to find it smack bang in the middle of picture number 13, yes there are others that look similar but not the same!.


Image

Then this brings us to"A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound,
for it is designed thus" and this side to side explains the movement of our pendulum in the center of picture number 13.

So after this it looks like there could be a link between picture 13 and 15 in MT, and dont forget these are 2 pictures that for some reason were drawn to run "anticlockwise" in the original MT book!.

Right now we will look at the second part of the picture in the AP book, the equal 3 sections that surround our mars saturn and jupiter, these segments are 22.5 degrees each now divide our 360 degree circle by 22.5 and you get 16, now the only picture in the MT book that has 16 equal segments is.....wait for it..you got it drawing number 15 as seen below.

Image


In the Book MT bessler describes picture number 13 and says it would run well if it were not for the friction, and in picture number 15 he also says that the prime mover's source cannot be seen or deduced but the figure shows an over balance , so whats its source?...could it be the pendulum in picture 13, the friction might be overcome by the extra leverage by the long limbs!.

Now at the end of the book were the strange picture is, there are also some verses just above, now i could it be the wheel is actually given away here?, its as if he has let you read his whole book and given you the answers right at the end.


Jacob III.v.14.15.16
Matth.XV.v.16

all these pitures in the MT book are variations of the one before and seem to have a slightly modified characteristic than the previous one, the only exception in picture number 3 depicted by III, i feel that this may be a link to picture number 13.


so if we combine different parts of the pictures 13 with 15 and taking small details from 14 16 we have something that looks like this picture below

Image

Now im not saying this is exactly how i think that besslers wheel looked but i think that this is the principle, i know that the weight on the right of the wheel may not be enough to lift the next limb into place but i do know that the weight on the right is enough to drag the pendulum to the right were it will eventually be let go, now this is were i think the wheel comes to life!, as the pendulum falls back towards the center it gains momentum and hits the next lever with enough force to lift the next limb into place!, is momentum the key that nobody has been using?.

The machine will gain a natural rhythm were it will increase speed because none or very little of the wheels momentum is lost due to the pendulum gaining and storing that energy then sending that kinetic energy through the lever raising the next limb.

bessler said :-

"all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712."


the force the pendulum gains through momentum is enough to shift the limb up and not effect the momentum of the wheel.


"The clattering noise you refer to is, I assure you, a phenomenon caused directly by the real motive power of the machine, and nothing else."

This would be the sound of the pendulum hitting the little levers that raise the limbs

"a work of this kind of craftsmanship has, at its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time."

the limbs are slid up and the weights swap places as he states.

"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain."

when the weights on the right pulls the pendulum to the right it is then released were it strikes the next lever wich is also traveling the opposite way to what the pendulum is swinging and the force is enough to raise the weight very rapidly indeed and take very little if anything from the wheel causing the wheel to speed up and gain momentum from its constant falling weights.

"Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve. A few years ago, I learned all about this the hard way. And then the truth of the old proverb came home to be that one has to learn through bitter experience."

the pendulum has been the missing key.


In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle."


Bessler never admitted to weights being on the axle but he never said there wasnt a pendulum ;), The pendulum swings back and forth rapidly, and is never
stationary.

the rest of the quotes can be found here , you should see that they all seem to have at least some relevance to the description i have given.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... rtal:Clues

There could also be an answer for the strange attachment that was seen on the bessler wheel, i think this was some kind of timing device for the internal pendulum maybe to prevent it from swinging to far and becoming out of balance, maybe that some of the pendulums energy was transfered to this pendulum type device so it wasn't wasted and could be retrieved on the back swing. bessler said that it could be knocked out of balance.


obviously i don't think this is the finished item but i do think it gives us something solid to work on.



picture quality may suffer through resizing.

hope you have enjoyed the read.


With Thanks to

john collins
besslerwheel.com
offyre.com

Thanks guys

Chad.
What goes around, comes around!.
Quartz
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by Quartz »

Hi Chad

Boy your thread is quiet, I think you scared them all off lol…. your probably wondering why no one has answered your post yet, be patient they will, I can tell you I like what you found regarding the apologia wheel ("Saturn, Mars and Jupiter) I “think� much of the focus will be how the three planets fit with the apologia wheel or not lol, hang in there.


Ken
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by ssmyser »

Chad, you've put a lot of thought into it, I'll give you that. Do yourself a favor and get the rest of the books, D.T. is the one I would pick next. Some of the members here (like Stewart) have them all memorized:)

Welcome to the group.
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by KAS »

Well done Chad,

Nicely laid out and explained.

It has certainly provided food for thought and I can see that this has taken up alot of your time.

Could this be the secret revealed?

My only reservations are the old dreaded friction and the complexity of the arrangement.

Friction:
It is well understood that the more you add to the workings of the wheel the more friction it creates. The design (a hybrid of the 2 concepts) appears very friction thirsty both in the lifting of the inner hammers and extending the outer weighted rods.

Complexity:
Bessler explained that the arrangement was simple. So simple, an apprentice could build it.
It is doubtful whether an apprentice could easily assemble such a design.

Having said that, who knows? This could actually be the one.

Its a brave person to build it though and could prove costly.

No matter what the outcome, well done and thanks for posting it.

Kas
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.�

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
Chad
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by Chad »

Thank you for the warm welcome guys i appreciate it.

It may be a friction thirsty machine but i am merely tryin to show the principle of the machine.

Think about it for a second, you have weights on the right side causing the over balance, when the wheel turns clockwise it imparts its energy to the pendulum causing the top of it to lean heavily to the right hand side, then the pendulum is let go and swings a short distance to the next lever gaining momentum were it hits the next lever with a greater force than it had to start with, this will shoot the weight up very quickly indeed as bessler stated!, the wheel gains more momentum and the pendulum hits the next lever with greater force than the first time causing the wheel to speed up as the weights are constantly falling!.

the pendulum in the MT isnt equal in length either, what i mean is the top section from the center is longer than the bottom section from the center, this indicates to me that bessler wasnt relying on brute force but momentum of the top portion of the pendulum to hit the next lever with speed gained from the bottom portion of the pendulum falling.

its all about using the weight of the many to lift one, but imparting that energy into a pendulum were it can be extracted kinetically to raise one weight so on and so forth.

bessler talks about his "principle" and i think this is it, its up to us now to make it a more efficient device.

Chad.
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Post by Chad »

Also one more thing before i go to work, the more "cross-bars" (does that ring a bell ;) ) added the wheel will become more efficient and have more power to do usefull work, friction is something we can work to eliminate now we have a valid principle.
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by KAS »

Chad wrote: Think about it for a second, you have weights on the right side causing the over balance, when the wheel turns clockwise it imparts its energy to the pendulum
Chad.
Chad,

This moment is not beneficial. I'll explain;

The wheel does indeed transfer its overbalance energy to the pendulum as it turns but thats counter torque, which is not good.
The counterbalance (at the bottom) will carry on absorbing the energy as it swings left until the wheel can give no more.

Then it starts to counterswing. At this point you would think that it is going to recycle this potential energy back to the wheel. However, as the top of the pendulum swings left it tries to lift the next levered hammer whilst at the same time lifting the weighted slider rod.
This means that the pendulum starts to absorb the wheel's positive energy again - still not good.

Try to visualise the resistance between the wheel and the pendulum at any one time - its anticlockwise.
Anticlockwise energy transfer on a clockwise rotating wheel is counterproductive no matter how you look at it.
Increasing the overbalance by extending the levers will only result in more countertorque.

This coupled with the rotating and sliding friction would lead me to conclude that the system would balance.
Breaking the balanced torque / countertorque ratio is the only way with OOB systems IMO.

There have been many on this forum that has suffered from countertorque blindness. I am also not imune.

I would love to be proved wrong however - no seriously!

You could be that man to do it chad!

Kas
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Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
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Post by broli »

I believe KAS could be right. When the top pendulum hits these legs it might also push the wheel in opposite direction which you don't like. Also in your head this might seem like a simple built but imagine it being actually built. It'll be an extremely complex wheel which would be convoluted by ropes, bars, levers, sliders.... Which imo would go against what prince Karl said about the simplicity.
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by Quartz »

Hi Kas

I reached the same conclusion, not to mention all that friction, nice job laying it out, I’ am in total agreement with you. Chad I think the only way your going know for sure is to build it other wise your never going to be at piece with yourself, there are people here that have many years of experience with this, I really trust there opinion, many of them will go out of there way to help you, I’ am very happy to be a part of this forum. I think you really hit on something though with the over lay of the three planets ("Saturn, Mars and Jupiter) pertaining to the apologia wheel, I think that in of it’s self is pretty important, Stewart what do you think about the over lay the three planets resembling the inner part of the apologia wheel.

Ken
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re: Bessler wheel principle solved?

Post by Chad »

Hi guys, i too agree with you that there will be loss but you have to remember that if you increase the cross-bars from 1 bar to 8 bars then there is not realy any gain in friction (only on the axle)as there is still only one bar sliding at one time!, you would be right if you extend the bars then counter torque would rob any benifit of extending the bars.

The pendulum only has to be around the same weight of 1 rod and weights!, it doesnt have to be heavier otherwise it will rob the wheel of its momentum, the momentum i am talking about is when the pendulum swings back towards the centre, just like if you have a 2 kilo weight on one end of equal lever, drop a kilo weight from a height and it will raise the 2 kilo weight as it has gained momentum.

This is the same as were bessler said if you can get 4oz of weight to raise 1lb.

Also dont be fooled by the complexaty of the wheel, it isnt complex at all, there are twice as many cross-bars on it than i think bessler had, the witness reports say that they heard 8 bumps per rotation wich would indicate only 4 cross-bars.

Image

Nobody can be 100% sure it works untill it is built and this includes me aswell, so dont worry im not going to start ranting and raving if you dont think it has any promise ;).

ive allready started a build but funds are tight as with most of us guys so i will just take my time and keep you posted.

any ideas on improvement would be great.

thanks for you time guys

PS. il try and get some pictures up on how far i am with my build as soon as i can find the software cd for my fone.

Chad.
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Post by broli »

Good to hear you're going to build it. Make sure you have fun with it ;)
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Post by Chad »

lol no doubt il have fun broli

thanks :D

PS thats a bad drawing i did above, the levers dont hit the bottom of the pendulum.

rough and ready lol.

Chad.
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Post by DrWhat »

Hi Chad,

have you built this wheel yet?

I'll be very curious to see what it does. Is this the one Alan is helping you with?

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Post by AB Hammer »

Damian

We are still in the talking stages on the one we are talking about. I am working on the parts to another wheel of mine at this time as well. I should be done with it by this weekend sometime (hopefully) I have some more materials to purchase to finish. Cross you fingers :))
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Post by DrWhat »

Good luck Alan!
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