A Gravity Wheel using 360 degrees???

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:23 am

@Dave: Your points are very general and don't seem to be directed specifically at Ant's device. Why don't you put your points in a new thread as addressing them here will just send this thread off topic.

rlortie · Post by **rlortie** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:24 pm

Hello Marctwo,
I see by your joining date, you are a 'Newbie' and like ant have a UK IP address, welcome to the forum, is your location close to ant?.

Your first post stating that Dave Robert's statement is very general is true. What you are missing is that point by point he is telling Ant in a gentleman's way that his OB scissor mechanism will not work no matter how many units he applies to it.

I suggest you go back and re-read Dave's comments point by point with Ant's design in mind. The scissor bill or jack as ant is attempting to use it will IMO never succeed.

They are all symmetrical pinned to the disc, IMO to lift/close one while another opens= a force of zero. Each one or a multiple of open scissors will represent a keel point.

Ralph

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:46 pm

If Dave is saying he has built this design then please Dave elaborate further...

Ralph
What does "keel point" mean?

By the way, the scissor jacks are nothing more than the frame of an empty square that gets 1/8 inch bigger each square extention.

Incidently now I have changed the polarity of each arm it performs better. I do need to strip and refile each arm as I did not take into account the burring when I drilled the 1/8 inch larger hole over the individually drilled 3/32 inch holes, it's causing excess friction.

rlortie · Post by **rlortie** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:25 pm

Ant,

Keel point is not unlike the keel of a sail boat. It is where the greater mass representing the point of balance is below the center axis. In some (or most) cases this is the point of rest. A pendulum for example is in balance at its keel point when static at 6:00 o'clock.

Your Youtube video shows a keel point as each scissor unit opens, otherwise you would not have to turn it manually as shown by your own hand. IMO you will not gain anything by adding more units until you achieve additional force to close them, and even then the weight suspension point is still symmetrical to the wheel.

I do not think you will gain anything by addressing the friction problem of the burrs caused by resizing the pivot holes.

This is strictly my opinion based on the experience of both Dave Roberts and myself.

Yes we have work together and independently using scissor jacks or empty frames as you refer to them.

My current research with MT No. 24 has a simplified version of a single scissor that looks promising, but is not without the usual setbacks. The closing unit just past 6:00 and the open unit reaching 6:00 both create a keel point. Without the additional weight to overcome these combined units, it keels at this point.

You will note that MT No. 24 has weights falling to open and close the scissor action. This is strictly a gravity concept. Even here you run into a symmetrical problem, as the weights shift the suspension point does not.

If you view Turulato' s album and posts you will find more info and past scissor design research.

Ralph

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:38 pm

Thanks for the quick reply, I have checked out Turulato's folder, where is MT No.24?

I have already addressed 4 of the 8 arms @ 1 to 15 squares to my satisfaction (2 hours each arm) - they have improved dramatically. When I have completed the other 4, early next week, I will utube a video of them to include the reversed polarity!!!

The reason I use my hand to move them, which is not hidden 'cos the videos are intended as an update to what I am doing with the energy=mcÂ² idea and the progress I am making - be it good or bad.

Again I have not seen anyone build the same design so until I am shown failed attempts I will plod on...

I do not use weights, the weight is the square frame. Additional weight added in the conventional sense retards movement.

As a musical break - check out the scissor action in cloth of MC(Â²) Hammers legs.
you cant touch this...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DcNUx0-XEfw

rlortie · Post by **rlortie** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:51 pm

MT No.24 can be found in the wiki, or at http://www.orffyre.com/mt21-40.html

I will soon be posting some pictures of my version on my own web link

Ralph

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:26 pm

Thanks...

Interesting...
I've built a 3 armed variation of MT39.

Please let me know your web link when you have published your pictures.

rlortie · Post by **rlortie** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:36 pm

Ant,

Member with web sites can be found at the bottom of their posts.

Your own site is also at the bottom of your post, click on the WWW!

Ralph

Post by **scott** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:53 am

Ant wrote:What does "keel point" mean?

Please see: http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... Principles

Credit goes to MrTim for this concept/terminology.

-Scott

Marctwo · Post by **Marctwo** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:38 am

rlortie wrote:Your first post stating that Dave Robert's statement is very general is true. What you are missing is that point by point he is telling Ant in a gentleman's way that his OB scissor mechanism will not work no matter how many units he applies to it.

The point is that Dave made general comments about working on gravity wheels. Some of them are relevant to Ant's (and many other designs) and some of them are not. But Dave didn't address Ant's design directly.

The reason I posted was because I'd quite like to discuss the points that Dave made but I wouldn't do so in this thread as they are not specific points to this thread.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:24 pm

Before I post some photos to show the observations I have made, I would like to place a link to the MIT Open Course Ware. Physics lectures can be downloaded free.

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/index.htm
In physics 1 Fall 1999
Lecture 4
The Art of Making Measurements
"A measurement is meaningless without knowledge of its uncertainty. The lengths of an aluminum rod and the length of a student are both measured standing straight up and lying down horizontally to test whether the student's length is larger when he is lying down than when he is standing straight up. Within the uncertainty of the measurements, the difference between standing and lying is substantial for the student (NOT for the aluminum rod)."

Applied to my string of square frames I will shortly post pictures as to the reason I changed the polarity. I am not saying this is going to remove any perceived keel point, observe the difference for yourself...

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:36 pm

Ant

You are obvious very good with math. But math is not the whole story or it would have been done on a regular basis. This is one of the reason they say it is impossible. Even though the math says it will work and when it gets built it doesn't work. You have to ask yourself. Is the math wrong or is there an equation missing from the calculations? The facts are until we get a running wheel, we will be missing the equation. Then once understood the missing equation will then make since.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:55 pm

The polarity or the square lattice structure was pinned into the prototype by the wide end so the small end was leading.

This is the 10 squared example - with another 10 squared closed with a rubber band - to show the difference in balance.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:33 pm

This is the 15 squared example - with another 15 squared closed with a rubber band - to show the difference in balance.

Post the reverse polarity after dinner.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:29 pm

With the polarity changed the square lattice structure, once refurbished will be pinned into the prototype by the small end so the wide end will be leading.

The only way I will know if there is a difference as AB Hammer put it, it is in the build.

So far no body has come forward and said - done that, didn't work!!!

I will have conclusive results on 1 to 15 squared - large end leading by the end of the week.