Non cycle or rotational speed dependant applied torque

[John Lindsay]

It is possible to apply an approximately one second torque or twist repeatedly to a wheel or flywheel say with a 2 or 3 to 1 applied force difference (clockwise versus counterclockwise) that is not rpm dependant. In other words this torque will keep being applied whether the wheel is going 30 rpm or 3000 and it will keep accelerating if no work is being done. It doesn't care what speed it is going, the same amount of twist stays the same. This is based on the accelerating force of gravity (or centrifugal force if you want) and the different tensions involved when a larger weight is at odds with a smaller one. You will need compensational "energy" to get things going but at higher speeds you will have enough to take care of that "and then some". Good fortune and peace to all. John

[jim_mich]

One second of torque during each rotation of a wheel that is rotating at 30 RPM will produce torque on the wheel during 50% of its rotation. When the wheel rotates at 60 RPM then it is rotating at 1 rotation per second so the one second torque becomes continuous. If the wheel is rotating at 3000 RPM then it is rotating at 50 revolution per second. If torque is applied during half of each rotation then it would be applied for about 1/100th of a second each rotation.

[Bill_Mothershead]

It is possible to apply...torque repeatedly to a wheel...

OK. What is the point of your post?

If you intend to share something meaningful, you might consider
being a little more forthcomming with the mechanical details.

What does your gizmo look like? How does it work?

[rlortie]

John,

You have been a member of this forum for almost five years! Although Jim_mich has answered your question mathematically it still does not make sense.

I agree with Bill M, You need to be a little more descriptive of what you have in mind. My first thought of your post brings forth an image of MT No. 13 where the inner portion is spinning.

If this is what you have in mind, it is my opinion that it will not work.

Ralph

[Marctwo]

John's post mentions applying torque on a time basis not a fraction of the revolution. I'm sure we can all think of examples where torque is applied for many revolutions at a time.

I can't think of an example off hand where the time of the torque application remains constant through acceleration though.

[rlortie]

Marctwo wrote:

I can't think of an example off hand where the time of the torque application remains constant through acceleration though.

I can give you a simple example; A pendulums amplitude can gain in height and acceleration while the time of cycle remains constant dependent on the rod length or radius of swing. Therefore the torque input pulse remains at a constant rate while the pendulum accelerates.

The principle of the pendulum was discovered by Italian physicist and astronomer Galileo, who established that the period for the back-and-forth oscillation of a pendulum of a given length remains the same, no matter how large its arc, or amplitude. (If the amplitude is too large, however, the period of the pendulum is dependent on the amplitude.) This phenomenon is called isochronism,

"Pendulum," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 97 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1996 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Once achieving a full 360 degrees I do not think this would apply but I am not in a position to say yes or no!

Ralph

[Marctwo]

Nice one Ralph.

I really should have thought of that, shouldn't I...

[John Lindsay]

It is the wedding of two different ideas. One of which most people wouldn't even bother with because it would seem unusable for any purpose. When I say that it has a prolonged pulse or torque of about a second, that means that at 3000 rpm, the torque will be applied to 50 revolutions, (6000/100) and so on. The cycle of the forced twist and it's time length has nothing to do with the speed of the wheel. The rotating wheel just happens to be the staging area of two kinds of tension going in opposing directions with one greater than the other. Two weights are at odds with each other in a way that one wins over the other. After each interval you would have to lift a weight back up within a set time frame- drop,lift,drop,lift, all based on the usable force/speed of gravity and of course needing the appropriate energy of, let's say, 20 ft/lbs a second for this lifting manuever. If you were using two of these mechanisms in "conjunction with" the rotating wheel in synch so they would alternate their torque application so that it is being applied on an almost continual basis, and it keeps accelerating, Let the fun begin! My Point Is that we have infinity to investigate. This design took me quite awhile to figure out. It is hard to put into words. I will send a copy of the design to Scott if he want's to look at it. Have a super day...John

[WaltzCee]

John,

The idea you shared brings to mind spinning a basket ball on your finger by tapping it on the side. The applied torque would spend less time the faster the ball moves.

I would look at using centrifugal force since it would increase with the speed of rotation. It would have a better chance of keeping pace. Gravity has it's limits.

[John Lindsay]

Walter, thanks for your input. I am in a library on Clarkson road at the moment:) thought you might find that interesting. To give a different perspective, if you held the wheel still in your hand you would feel x amount of twist for y amount of time. WHATEVER speed it is rotating the same would apply. You could call it a "useful side effect" of the interaction of forces. "Extra" energy is not being created, the two ideas involved are just out of phase. Centrifugal force could be used also but you don't want things happening "too quickly"-More energy per time frame will be needed for operation of the "torque producer". Kind regards, John

[WaltzCee]

John,

You have a year to apply for a patent once the idea is published. If you were to post the details the discussion might enhance it and you would still be in a position to protect it.

I know phase shifts have been looked at extensively. The idea reduces to an imbalance of torque.

Clarkson Road? I'm famous!

Walt

[John Lindsay]

Of course there are different ways of doing this with shorter time frames(much better!-and a different way of doing this action). The main point I want to get across is that you are initiating an unequal opposing reaction which has the option to keep accelerating since it is not "timed" to the constant speed of the "background activities". For instance doing this a new way would be instead of activating this "reaction" for a second and then you have to lift something back up 32 feet, using say shorter "descending events" such as 2 feet (or whatever you want) for your weight-I'm guessing-6 times a second(with the appropriate amount of mechanisms to do this) so 6x2=12. The difference is substantial. You COULD just let the weight Rip! and get the same effect but then you would have to go chasing after an accelerating mass.(Ug)! Better to do the short "descending events" with the same result. So using the beginning part of of an "energy signature" as it accelerates seems to be the way to go. There is a saying - "Form is the envelope of pulse" whether a leaf, planet, or whatever. May the force be with you...John

[FunWithGravity]

OK John, its built,

By one second you meant one degree correct? I had 5 degrees and it works better. But by less you meant less than 30 right? I was trying your way but their are many ways to do it so i'm doing it my way. My unequal opposing reactions is probably taking place where yours might be but i'm not sure. Can you post some pictures or drawings so we can see if we built the same wheel? My problem with shortening the time frame appears to result in uncontolled RPM. I will probably shorten to control overrevving. Please let me know what you think.

[John Lindsay]

Hello!, Mr. Fun With Gravity. I may have messed up on my semantics on my posts a little bit, but bassically I was thinking in terms of what you need to do per second (of time) with lowering and raising weights in an unusual manner and the affect they have on a wheel or flywheel. My concept is Not a fixed round center with a chain or whatever wrapped around it and a weight being lowered on the outside rim of the wheel with this chain, although anything round with weights on it catches my attention for some reason;). If you have something else entirely, well, sounds interesting! Right now I have to get ready for work. Until next time, Cheers...John

[Quartz]

Mr. Fun With Gravity

you said

( My unequal opposing reactions)

Veary Interesting, thank you :)


Ken