Hello,
Just a quick question. Does anyone know of any well known legitimate agencies in the states that validate or or would be willing to test claims of pm/ou machines.
Jon
Scientific agencies that validate claims
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Jon J Hutton
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MrTim
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
"Sometimes the harder you look the better it hides." - Dilbert's garbageman
re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
caution here! The link MrTim has posted may be confused with Underwriters Laboratories, better known by its icon "UL" that you find stamped on most all electrical equipment. Universal Lab is not UL approved, but it appears they would like people to think they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwrite ... Enclosures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwrite ... s#About_UL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwriters_Laboratories
UL is a none profit organization established in 1894.
Universal laboratories is a relative new company and is in the business of making money.
Check out the list at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationally ... boratories
Ralph
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwrite ... Enclosures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwrite ... s#About_UL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwriters_Laboratories
UL is a none profit organization established in 1894.
Universal laboratories is a relative new company and is in the business of making money.
Check out the list at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationally ... boratories
Ralph
All that is needed to test a PM wheel is a Prony Brake. Connect the PM wheel to a Prony Brake or a dynamometer and it will tell you how much horsepower the PM machine it putting out. Make sure you have all the PM wheel components out in the open so that nothing is hidden else you will be accused of fraud.
If you can build a PM wheel then you should be able to easily build a Prony Brake.
See http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/PronyB ... Brake.html
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Prony_brake
If the PM device is electrical then just connect it to an electric immersion heater and use the electrical output of the PM device to heat an insulated known quantity of water. The temperature rise over a known time span will tell you how many BTU the device is putting out and from that the HP can be calculated. Or just connect the device to some light bulbs to get a rough idea of how many Watts it puts out.
Any device that can stand alone without being connected to any power input and can output measurable usable energy of any form over an extended period of time is proof that the device works.
The ultimate test would be a commercially available product with satisfied customers.
(Edited spelling error: produce changed to product)
If you can build a PM wheel then you should be able to easily build a Prony Brake.
See http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/PronyB ... Brake.html
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Prony_brake
If the PM device is electrical then just connect it to an electric immersion heater and use the electrical output of the PM device to heat an insulated known quantity of water. The temperature rise over a known time span will tell you how many BTU the device is putting out and from that the HP can be calculated. Or just connect the device to some light bulbs to get a rough idea of how many Watts it puts out.
Any device that can stand alone without being connected to any power input and can output measurable usable energy of any form over an extended period of time is proof that the device works.
The ultimate test would be a commercially available product with satisfied customers.
(Edited spelling error: produce changed to product)
Last edited by jim_mich on Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jon J Hutton
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
Yes I agree Jim but, if you are going to talk to investors you have to get their attention first with some hard facts by a reputable organization or agency, otherwise they will laugh while hanging up.
Jon
Jon
Curiously we call it a pony brake in Dear Old Blighty. see http://www.buckleyoldengineshow.org/Spo ... Pony-Brake
Regards
Jon
Regards
Jon
Yes, many people erroneously call it a "pony" brake. The correct name is Prony brake, named after the inventor Gaspard de Prony.
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Jon J Hutton
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
Thanks all,
I liked the part about the prony break but am still not sure on how to test it on a moving shaft/flywheel.
One more thing that I am concerned with perhaps someone can clear it up for my.......I have a friend lets say.
Because the patent office says it will not accept patents on Perpetual Motion Machines because they are a waste of time/not of value. This has my friend nervous to apply so he hid his idea as many have thought of in an application that warrants a patent and hidden in the works of it is his pm wheel. Could someone else apply for a patent on the theory of how it works after he receives his pat. pend.(theory's are patented as long as they are linked to tangible things) and overrule/make of little value his pat pend, like henry ford did with the internal combustion engine. I am advising "my friend" to also apply for a pat for the theory and machine. If the uspo denies either. Sue the us govt. on many grounds....
What do you think?
Jon
I liked the part about the prony break but am still not sure on how to test it on a moving shaft/flywheel.
One more thing that I am concerned with perhaps someone can clear it up for my.......I have a friend lets say.
Because the patent office says it will not accept patents on Perpetual Motion Machines because they are a waste of time/not of value. This has my friend nervous to apply so he hid his idea as many have thought of in an application that warrants a patent and hidden in the works of it is his pm wheel. Could someone else apply for a patent on the theory of how it works after he receives his pat. pend.(theory's are patented as long as they are linked to tangible things) and overrule/make of little value his pat pend, like henry ford did with the internal combustion engine. I am advising "my friend" to also apply for a pat for the theory and machine. If the uspo denies either. Sue the us govt. on many grounds....
What do you think?
Jon
First, let's get one thing straight concerning perpetual motion and the US PTO (US Patent & Trademark Office). The PTO will reject perpetual motion patents on the grounds that they don't work. They don't reject them because they are a waste of time/not of value.
If you can prove that a perpetual motion invention actually works, then the PTO cannot deny issuing a patent on the grounds of not working. The proof would need to be very strong, such as by having a fully working model.
Whether or not someone could apply for a patent on the theory of how it works depends mostly on what your friend has claimed in his initial patent and on what was disclosed. Anything that was disclosed in the initial patent application can not be patented.
I don't think that you can sue the government for denying a patent application. All that you can do is sue the government to take another look at the application. I might be wrong about this. I'm not a patent attorney.
If you can prove that a perpetual motion invention actually works, then the PTO cannot deny issuing a patent on the grounds of not working. The proof would need to be very strong, such as by having a fully working model.
Whether or not someone could apply for a patent on the theory of how it works depends mostly on what your friend has claimed in his initial patent and on what was disclosed. Anything that was disclosed in the initial patent application can not be patented.
I don't think that you can sue the government for denying a patent application. All that you can do is sue the government to take another look at the application. I might be wrong about this. I'm not a patent attorney.
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FunWithGravity
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
OK Here I go Foot in mouth
I've watched a few threads and here goes, Jon Hutton you are a legitimate shmuck. Destined to join a long list of other shmucks. if you had a working wheel their wouls be a long list of potential investors lined up to pay you extremely large amopunts of money to purchase your invention. NO Patent needed. Since you want a patent LOL you must want money. Your question of how to prove the power is one of the oldest and stupidest ways of baiting everyone to play with you and ask for your SECRET. (you have none)
NO one is biting, go back to your basement build what I Guarantee you have not yet and then get back to us with your tail between your legs or call an investor. I don't care if it can lift a tack or a truck. It will be worth the same to anyone or compnay who understands what has been done.
The reason you don't do this is because like the rest you have nothing but some late night epiphany of how you think it might work.
If i had a dollar for every perpetual motion claim of a working wheel i would be a millionare.
PS
Let your friend know also LOL
I've watched a few threads and here goes, Jon Hutton you are a legitimate shmuck. Destined to join a long list of other shmucks. if you had a working wheel their wouls be a long list of potential investors lined up to pay you extremely large amopunts of money to purchase your invention. NO Patent needed. Since you want a patent LOL you must want money. Your question of how to prove the power is one of the oldest and stupidest ways of baiting everyone to play with you and ask for your SECRET. (you have none)
NO one is biting, go back to your basement build what I Guarantee you have not yet and then get back to us with your tail between your legs or call an investor. I don't care if it can lift a tack or a truck. It will be worth the same to anyone or compnay who understands what has been done.
The reason you don't do this is because like the rest you have nothing but some late night epiphany of how you think it might work.
If i had a dollar for every perpetual motion claim of a working wheel i would be a millionare.
PS
Let your friend know also LOL
A great discovery solves a great problem, but there is a grain of discovery in the solution of any problem.
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Jon J Hutton
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
Thanks Jim for your reply,
Edited out
Jon
Edited out
Jon
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Jon J Hutton
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
Hey,
I have a question FWG,....what would you do if.
You became friends with a guy who was working in the same quest as you. You had spent many hours over the last several years working on an ou device, but each time it was like hitting your head against the wall. You thought you had a good idea at least of how not to do it and you discovered that your friend said he had succeeded. Your friend tell you how and if anything makes since it is his explanation. First you think rats wish it could of been me first but then you are at least curious, but very skeptical but still would like to see if there is a bit of truth to his claim. You investigate and find out that he has been reviewed by a reporter and others. Each say it is true. So you talk to the reporter personally and he confirms it is a ou device. You talk to others and they confirm it. Then you ask why in world is this (if true) not out where the general public can make advantage of this device. You say to yourself. "do you know how many wars have been fought over energy and damage to the earth gas engines are causing etc....etc.. So you call your friend and He tells you his story. You discover he has not just built one, but eight machines and has been visited by many businesses including some very well known businesses ( I will not mention here), he even tried to tell his story on some well known bb's but was laughed at him and called all sorts of names till he left discouraged at their ignorance. Even the reporter who covered the story who was a first hand witness of the machines power received so much flack from his article he told me he was not going to mention it again unless it went to the next level. My friend told me he was slammed by unbelief on one side, and ungodly greed on the other. He even tried to have it massed produced in the states by a well know company but greed also got the best of the deal. My friend finally said he was just content with having it in his house and finishing his retirement. My friend is a very practical older man. Sickened by greed, and battered by neigh Sayers. Like I said, I believe his sincerity one hundred percent. All my personal investigation does not throw up any red flags.....(besides the simple fact that all this sounds too good to be true and no one has ever done it ....except possible Bessler) So my friend at the point of paranoia patents his machine inside another.....and is working with me on taking this machine to the next level.....mass production / investors / presentation........ My question was sincere. I have spent hours talking to him and "IF" (according to history it is very doubtful) this turns out to be real, although I may not agree with his way of handling it, I have to work around his wounds and what he wants to get this machine out for others to benefit from it.......If that makes me a real jerk or a putz since you like Yiddish......Oh....you might ask the same as he did. What do you want out of all this Jon. I will tell you the same as I told him. For this to get out to the public and to build as many schools here in Guatemala that I can. My first wife gave her life to help build a school here in Guatemala and died in my arms. If all this makes me a money hungry shmuck then I am guilty..........I had a question and posted it here because I trust the knowledge of the people that visit this board especially Ralph and Jim.......and still do and would have to be one of the biggest hypocrites alive to try to build it myself and laugh and scorn if anyone besides me claims success. I hope this is true. I hope someone succeeds. I even hope you succeed. Because I have buried way to many people because I can’t raise enough money to get clean water to some of the villages I work with. After my visit in three week I will know in the first five minutes........I can't believe I wrote all this perhaps I am a shmuck.
Jon
I have a question FWG,....what would you do if.
You became friends with a guy who was working in the same quest as you. You had spent many hours over the last several years working on an ou device, but each time it was like hitting your head against the wall. You thought you had a good idea at least of how not to do it and you discovered that your friend said he had succeeded. Your friend tell you how and if anything makes since it is his explanation. First you think rats wish it could of been me first but then you are at least curious, but very skeptical but still would like to see if there is a bit of truth to his claim. You investigate and find out that he has been reviewed by a reporter and others. Each say it is true. So you talk to the reporter personally and he confirms it is a ou device. You talk to others and they confirm it. Then you ask why in world is this (if true) not out where the general public can make advantage of this device. You say to yourself. "do you know how many wars have been fought over energy and damage to the earth gas engines are causing etc....etc.. So you call your friend and He tells you his story. You discover he has not just built one, but eight machines and has been visited by many businesses including some very well known businesses ( I will not mention here), he even tried to tell his story on some well known bb's but was laughed at him and called all sorts of names till he left discouraged at their ignorance. Even the reporter who covered the story who was a first hand witness of the machines power received so much flack from his article he told me he was not going to mention it again unless it went to the next level. My friend told me he was slammed by unbelief on one side, and ungodly greed on the other. He even tried to have it massed produced in the states by a well know company but greed also got the best of the deal. My friend finally said he was just content with having it in his house and finishing his retirement. My friend is a very practical older man. Sickened by greed, and battered by neigh Sayers. Like I said, I believe his sincerity one hundred percent. All my personal investigation does not throw up any red flags.....(besides the simple fact that all this sounds too good to be true and no one has ever done it ....except possible Bessler) So my friend at the point of paranoia patents his machine inside another.....and is working with me on taking this machine to the next level.....mass production / investors / presentation........ My question was sincere. I have spent hours talking to him and "IF" (according to history it is very doubtful) this turns out to be real, although I may not agree with his way of handling it, I have to work around his wounds and what he wants to get this machine out for others to benefit from it.......If that makes me a real jerk or a putz since you like Yiddish......Oh....you might ask the same as he did. What do you want out of all this Jon. I will tell you the same as I told him. For this to get out to the public and to build as many schools here in Guatemala that I can. My first wife gave her life to help build a school here in Guatemala and died in my arms. If all this makes me a money hungry shmuck then I am guilty..........I had a question and posted it here because I trust the knowledge of the people that visit this board especially Ralph and Jim.......and still do and would have to be one of the biggest hypocrites alive to try to build it myself and laugh and scorn if anyone besides me claims success. I hope this is true. I hope someone succeeds. I even hope you succeed. Because I have buried way to many people because I can’t raise enough money to get clean water to some of the villages I work with. After my visit in three week I will know in the first five minutes........I can't believe I wrote all this perhaps I am a shmuck.
Jon
re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
Jon, FWIW... if this guy is your friend then why does he not show you his working machine? Why is he offering all these excuses about why he can't move forward with it? Just because a reporter supports a claim, does that make it true? Why are you getting involved without critical proof that there is actually a machine that actually works as actually claimed? How many red flags do you need to see before requesting proof before continuing your involvement?
Goodwill and effort should be reciprocated, particularly by your friends. If yours is not, then perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself why.
Goodwill and effort should be reciprocated, particularly by your friends. If yours is not, then perhaps you need to step back and ask yourself why.
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Jon J Hutton
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re: Scientific agencies that validate claims
Hey ovyyus,
Thanks for asking. I realize that I might have to explain myself and re-explain because I wrote what I did in haste. I have not really invested anything up till this point other than phone calls which are almost free through skype. My friend has offered to send me the plans and tell me about it but I told him I would rather see the machine in person. I have already seen videos of it. He has told me that would be no problem. The problem is I live 3 countries away from him. However I told him I have another friend, that lives very close, that I trust with my life and asked if he would allow him to see it first. Run the tests and call me after it has his approval. Then I would make the flight and get involved deeper. He agreed and that is why I said 3 weeks, I will know. I am, like I said 100 percent skeptical and 100 percent sure that he thinks he has a machine that is ou. We will soon see which side the toss lands on. I at least have to see for myself. When I said red flags I meant catching my friend in lies. I have recorded all conversations with him a habit I started doing years ago, re-listened to them, and they are "clean" of timeline lies or other lies. I thought of private mailing you this response but who cares like fwg said. I realize this subject is probably a waste of time but no one is obliging anyone to read it, I just wanted to explain myself further. Thanks for asking.
Jon
Thanks for asking. I realize that I might have to explain myself and re-explain because I wrote what I did in haste. I have not really invested anything up till this point other than phone calls which are almost free through skype. My friend has offered to send me the plans and tell me about it but I told him I would rather see the machine in person. I have already seen videos of it. He has told me that would be no problem. The problem is I live 3 countries away from him. However I told him I have another friend, that lives very close, that I trust with my life and asked if he would allow him to see it first. Run the tests and call me after it has his approval. Then I would make the flight and get involved deeper. He agreed and that is why I said 3 weeks, I will know. I am, like I said 100 percent skeptical and 100 percent sure that he thinks he has a machine that is ou. We will soon see which side the toss lands on. I at least have to see for myself. When I said red flags I meant catching my friend in lies. I have recorded all conversations with him a habit I started doing years ago, re-listened to them, and they are "clean" of timeline lies or other lies. I thought of private mailing you this response but who cares like fwg said. I realize this subject is probably a waste of time but no one is obliging anyone to read it, I just wanted to explain myself further. Thanks for asking.
Jon