Voting is evil, don't do it

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Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by scott »

This article was written to describe the problems with voting on wikipedia.

But the ideas can easily be extrapolated to describe next Tuesday if you're honest.

Remember the US is not a democracy - the saying that "what is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right" applies.
Polls are evil

Polls are evil. Don't vote on everything, and if you can help it, don't vote on anything.

Or, rather, polling isn't evil in itself, but when you try to distill an essay's worth of thought into a single phrase, that's the sort of oversimplified, divisive statement that happens. A bit like trying to distill an essay's worth of thought into a single "yea" or "nay".

(Although Wikipedia has a Neutral point of view policy, this article seems to have the general consensus of the Wikipedia community.)

Polling discourages consensus

Having the option of settling a dispute by taking a poll, instead of the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, actually undermines the progress in dispute resolution that Wiki has allowed. Wikipedia is not a democracy. This is a strength, not a failing. Dialectics is one of the most important things that make Wiki special, and while taking a poll is very often a lot easier than helping each other find a mutually agreeable position, it's almost never better.

Polling encourages the community to remain divided by avoiding that discourse; participants don't interact with the other voters, but merely choose camps. Establishing consensus requires expressing that opinion in terms other than a choice between discrete option and expanding the reasoning behind it, addressing the points that others have left, until all come to a mutually agreeable solution. No one can address objections that aren't stated, points that aren't made.

Yes, establishing consensus is a lot harder than taking a poll. So are most things worth doing.

Polling encourages false dichotomy

Very rarely are there only two potential positions on an issue. Simplifying a complex issue to a yes/no vote creates a false dichotomy. For example, in a vote for deletion, the option of merging the article with a similar piece is often ignored. To help counteract this, if you see a third option or compromise that has not been discussed, mention it!

Polling encourages groupthink

Seeing a list of participants in a poll encourages people to add their names. It's easy to just add your name, especially if one side is clearly "winning". Polling factionalizes users who might not even have been that strongly opposed—or that strongly in agreement. Discussion toward consensus requires participants to state their reasoning, and to read and understand the reasoning of others, to see where the situation is headed; polls give a falsely simplified picture. Not to mention that it's difficult to place yourself on the opposite side of users you respect, or on the same side as users you don't.

When the vote is strongly unbalanced, those on the "losing" side feel marginalized, and those on the "winning" side will sometimes feel as though the results of the poll give them license to do as they wish without taking into account the views of the minority, though nothing has been resolved.

Polling isn't fair, either

One of the primary issues with conducting polls is deciding whose votes count. Obviously, it's not fair if one user creates a horde of sockpuppets and uses them to stack a side. How about if someone brings in friends from outside Wikipedia who have barely edited? What about users who have only been around for a few days? Those who are longtime users but haven't read any of the associated discussion or misunderstand some of the issues? Who is the community, and how much weight should each person's voice have? These are difficult questions to answer when conducting a poll; any method of correcting perceived errors and faults in the process will inevitably lead to someone feeling slighted or wronged. In situations where a person or group of persons is charged with calling the final outcome, a decision will be made but its responsibility will fall on their shoulders; a difficult task particularly when they choose for whichever reason not to strictly follow the numbers. Where no one has final authority, it may be that everyone comes out thinking something went awry. ("If only these votes that shouldn't have counted hadn't been and others had, things might be different!") And that's just of those who participate. What of those who do not vote because they don't believe in voting? Even where we can perfectly define our community, no voting system is guaranteed to be fair. Under the usual conditions of quick-and-easy first-past-the-post polling it is entirely possible to come out with an answer that is not the one that would most satisfy everyone.

Polls are misleading and encourage confusion

As stated above, polling isn't in itself evil. Polls can be useful for a quick gauge of opinion. The problem is that people take the results of a poll as a mandate to do something based on the numbers that turn out—which it is not. It is explicitly stated that Wikipedia is not a democracy—the saying that "what is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right" applies.

The belief that the result of the poll, and not the commentary that springs from it, is going to decide the fate of the work, is what leads to polls that develop into more and more complex beasts, holding every possible option, leading to no longer two opposing camps but a dozen and pages that look like nothing but a mess to anyone who hasn't been embroiled in the debate. Voters feel misled at the end of a poll if the numerically superior option is not the one acted upon. "But it won the poll!" they claim, and not realizing that a poll is no substitute for consensus, are understandably upset, feeling that their voices have not been heard.

from: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polls_are_evil
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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by ovyyus »

I was hoping the article might offer a viable alternative to 'vote', other than the devisive opposite of 'not vote'.
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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by MrTim »

If you don't think the system is fair, you can always do this:

http://www.americanheritage.com/article ... 2_72.shtml
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Re: re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by scott »

ovyyus wrote:I was hoping the article might offer a viable alternative to 'vote', other than the devisive opposite of 'not vote'.
As you may have noticed, I am arguing quite strongly that not only is non-voting a *perfectly viable* option, it is also the best *moral* option and the best *practical* option. As Lew Rockwell put it:
The critical problem we face today is the same one all mankind has faced: the state, those monopolists who claim the right to break the laws that they make and enforce. How to restrain them is the critical problem of all sound political thinking. Making matters worse, this gang now has a monopoly on the money and the ability to print it, and they are abusing that power at our expense.

How does voting change the situation? Neither of the candidates for president wants to do anything about the problem. On the contrary, they want to make it worse. This is for a reason. The state owns the “democratic process� as surely as it owns the Departments of Labor and Defense and uses it in ways that benefit the state and no one else.

On the other hand, we do have the freedom not to vote. No one has yet drafted us into the voting booth. I suggest that we exercise this right not to participate. It is one of the few rights we have left. Nonparticipation sends a message that we no longer believe in the racket they have cooked up for us, and we want no part of it.

You might say that this is ineffective. But what effect does voting have? It gives them what they need most: a mandate. Nonparticipation helps deny that to them. It makes them, just on the margin, a bit more fearful that they are ruling us without our consent. This is all to the good. The government should fear the people. Not voting is a good beginning toward instilling that fear.

This year especially there is no lesser of two evils. There is socialism or fascism. The true American spirit should guide every voter to have no part of either.
So if you want to be *really* productive on election day, take the day off work and help get the word out about the virtues of non-voting.

-Scott
Last edited by scott on Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by jim_mich »

Not voting sends a message of apathy. It sends a message that you don't care about government. Instead, do as Ron Paul has suggested, vote for a candidate that is not from the two major parties. This way you send a message to the two parties that you are feed up with the way they run things.


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Post by scott »

Well that might be true if the system wasn't completely rigged by the two major parties but it is.

A good analogy is the street corner shell game. You know the game is rigged, you can choose to play or not. If you choose to play and lose, then you have no right to complain about the outcome because you implicitly validated the game by playing.

The only way you can honestly complain about the outcome is if you don't play. And the only way to shut the game down or change it is to convince everyone else to stop playing too.

-Scott
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Post by jim_mich »

But the street corner shell game does not make the laws that you are forced to live by.


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Post by scott »

Ah but it does. You just made my point. Thank you very much. :-)
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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by barksalot »

You might say that this is ineffective. But what effect does voting have? It gives them what they need most: a mandate. Nonparticipation helps deny that to them. It makes them, just on the margin, a bit more fearful that they are ruling us without our consent. This is all to the good. The government should fear the people. Not voting is a good beginning toward instilling that fear.
I agree.
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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by ovyyus »

So now Ron Paul is part of the problem too? Talk about voter swing! :D
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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by Jim Williams »

Scott

Rather than not voting, write in yourself. A vote for your democratic self is not evil and better than no vote at all.

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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by primemignonite »

Not unexpectedly, Scott's logic is impeccable, and so I can only but illuminate it a tad, by appending a few minor thoughts, done in all humility possible, such as I can get up.

Past a certain point - that specifically being co-operating with main actors in a state of 'knowing' - participation in gigantic, on-going criminality becomes an aiding and abetting of it! Sorry!

In my view, some kinds of voting are just that. Why serve to validate and further encouge IT, in it's monstrous, heaped-up, compounded felonies and treasons? In comparison, George III was a SAINT, as contrasted with the collective, wicked abuses of IT!

I am a very 'bore directly into the marrow' sort of fellow, and hold perfervidly to the belief that the mis and mal-revered Constitution has failed us utterly, just as the Anti-Federalists WARNED it would, over and over again, and why!

Check them off, each and every one of the then-objected-to constitutional points that have since bloomed wicked blossoms, and turned into poisonous fruit. The Anti-Federalists KNEW OF what they warned us against; the "well meaning" Federalists did not, or pretended it.

In the end, because it will have been forced upon us due to our inattentions and lack of vigilance (and attended-to practically always), our remedy once again will be found to be the main Declarative Principle, which ACTUALLY DOES comprise what America and Americanism truly is at it's very core, and NOT the Constitution and the pathetic wreckage it has been torn into!

BEWARE!

We have been taught and encouraged to promote the defective view that our government servant is actually America herself! Of course IT isn't, but IT has become so deranged and lying and thieving a thing, as to now fancy ITself our very master and which many accept as tolerable, desirable, even!!!

How very odd? Heh!, on-the-contrary, actually. All perfectly predictable, as it was.

This confusion custom-made and set between what is the true servant and "We . . .", who actually created the creature, is purposeful to the deviousness underlaying the deception, and, at all costs, must be broken away-from, for it is a chain of intolerable control, to the still-sane among us.

Truly, constitutions come, and constitutions go, we now being on our second one, headed for that perfectable 'third try'. [Will we this time inveigh to "bind them down" well enough??? Will we determine to greatly expand our definitions for treason, and their ready applicability to those whom the people elect and cede temporarily our trust, our safety and treasure, but who then turn to us their rapacious, contempt-filled sides? Hmm??? Well, we shall see if informed courage exists still.]

Also, as far as such actions go, as may be found in Mr. Tim's pertiment, linked example, they, as well as all others like them we have as models, were perfectedly-within the purest traditions of what our "Right" and "Duty" to do, in-fact are, both being fully justified, and further, mandated to us by the Declaration, as well as that most essential factor of them all, the continued smiling down upon us of "Divine Providence."

[Please, do understand that my objection to participations in the voting-go-round games extend mainly to the federal one, for president and vice-president. Local elections can still be, in theory, controlled somewhat by constituencies and so, are potentially useful, but here things continue to become evermore 'dicey', mightn't we say honestly?]

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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by docfeelsgood »

It really matters little whether you vote or not , it's just a formality guaranteed you so they give you a choice of candidates that THEY have picked !!! the president holds no power !!! its a PUPPET government !!!

He who has the gold has the power !!!

The federal reserve , the world bank !!! they are the master puppeteers .

Remember woody wilson who in 1913 "give to you a christmas present" the aldrich act ??? the us treasury was no longer smart enough to handle money ??? hhmmm , i wonder why ???

ww2 comes along ,, Churchill is begging fdr for help ,, fdr is champing at the bit but cant figure a way to enter . the us economy is already in a shambles from many years of depression , he knows war will restore the economy and make him look like a hero . hell sink a ship !!! I'm surprised they havn't made hitler a hero because he and the german industrialists who backed him was the only thing that brought the u.s. out of the great depression !!!

well victory tax was already on the books as legal so why stop the tax at the wars end , EXTEND IT !!!! even got all them stay at home moms out in the work force now also paying income taxes !!! YAHOOO ,,, good times are here and they are on a roll !!!!!!!!!!! when the goverment got full controll of taxation to the general public it was the totall end , you were now enslaved !!!!!!!

now they have just gotten another raise , fairly hefty , 700 billion !!! do you actually believe this was intended to help you or i ???? add it to the taxpayers tab , THANK YOU !!

recently it was said by someone that the government cant even run a brothel !!!!!
well OPEN your eyes !!!! there happens to be thousands spread across the u.s. all government run at the taxpayers expense !!!! and i didn't find out this info. settin under a bridge swillin rotgut !!! all you have to know is what signs to look for !!! also about 20 years ago they were setting up a network of golf courses across the u.s. all within a days drive of one another so they could have some recreation and PLEASURE at the next stop . and then you hit vegas ,, before you hit the coast .

the only way to reverse this situation is to break the hold of world banking and the federal reserve . are YOU man enough for the task ??? I thought so ,,, now go back and watch you monday night football !!!!

hell i'll probey get killed for what i just exposed !!

Scott , James , come on enlighten these poor misguided mortals !!!
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Post by DrWhat »

Check this out.

Click on RESULTS and scroll down.

http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/
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re: Voting is evil, don't do it

Post by AB Hammer »

Damian

That is scary, but is says something. When dealing with another country you always want the pushover. That way you win every time.
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