Vis viva vs. vis mortua...

[iacob alex]

.....that old manner of thinking about gravity,can be a simple and "illuminatory" view regarding our topic,as quickly as possible you can move an on-off power switch of an electric light.

The pattern of energy transformation within a system has a dictum,a well-known saying: no flow(fall,move...),no power.

So,it seems that for our topic,the key word is fall,move,vis viva ,but this is a part only,of a dual phenomenon:gravity.

Gravity can be manifest as a potential(vis mortua,doing no active work,but pressure only),as we know in statics.

In the same time,the gravity can be manifest as a continuous fall/flow(vis viva,move,moving against resistence,doing work,kinetic energy of a moving body),as we know in dynamics.

Now,without a doubt,it's your way out to consider an "out-of-use" concept(Leibnitz and others...),practical or not for your applicability.

When all is said and done,sometimes,the past time can help our future.

All the Bests! / Alex

[Jiggawatts]

Few people goes back to the past. That's just the way human take things for granted. Lebniz and Newton once fought over the topic that we're having questions. As one can see, the problem of gravity, momentum, force has been existed and never been resolved. So... it isn't the matter of what is the truth, it's the matter what do you want.

[iacob alex]

...this "binary" property of gravity(fall/no fall),is like the feature of a river(flow/no flow-ice,frozen water).

Any shape of a collecting power device,from a flow ask for a primary "sine qua non":motion.

So,in gravity we need a fall motion,as a flow of a river.

This flow is manifest not outside the mass,but is visible,also :is in matter and due to his relation with the gravitational field.

In this manner,the first step is to set free,let it fall as much as possible your design,as in a flow.

The stimulating quality of this fall/flow is his accelerating rate

Don't forget to store this power in some way,so to remake in a self mode the starting motion and to seize out your necessary energy.

Let it be "vis viva"...

All the Bests! / Alex

[murilo]

Iacob, you are right when you talk of the resistance to fall, which can be also a ''switch'' to the ''force''.

At times ago I said - in this same line - that conservatives are the resistances to the fall, that would be continuous down to earth center.

Gravity doesn't offer its oposite polarity, as a magnet, but it can be stored at one's will and compared to other ''potentials'', as in a two arms bascule.

If in this bascule you have applied w=4kg and w=1kg, one side will fall due to 3kg mass surplus.

If you hold this falling arm at a smaller angule, before ''rest position'', you will experiment how not conservative is gravity, you'll see its power and torque just as a ''piston'', and you will see also that this power can not be emptied, or exhausted, or changed, except if you use some kind of ''resistances'', counter forces or far distance from earth center.

Any other experiment you do with this set of bascule, you will see that 1kg at the jumping side will be 100% active, during all the time, without any relief... It may be winned but never dissipated in its ''power''.

Deal with gravity is a mysterious passion!

regs.
M.

[iacob alex]

Hi Murilo !

Maybe,as you said, the "deal with gravity is a mysterious passion".

I understand "passion",but not "mysterious"...because the scenery,the natural stage setting of the things and phenomena is free and open for each and every one.

As somebody said,if you are on a new path of knowledge,you must make three steps:the first one is to forget all that you know(schooling),the second is to open your own mind and then to comprehend in your manner.

If we look at gravity as on a common flow(river,rain,cascade...) the real mystery is about his accelerating rate...here is the key point.

This ineffable property can be useful for our intention:openly mechanical power,if we "pack it " into a "black box" with a small input and a great output.

Then we connect the output to the input and play a self running solution...

This is the "mysterious" charm of gravity:visible and invisible in the same time.

All the Bests! / Alex

[primemignonite]

EXCELLENT discussion, this!

Pray continue.

James

[murilo]

Alex,
hi!
You started your msg telling that gravity is not mysterious and finished telling it's charmly mysterious.
This means that you runned but we came to met ourselves at 360°, right is the same point! :)
I guess that the fishes have the same questions if they try to understand the water... So near and so far! X(((())))°>
Cheers!
Muliro

[pequaide]

Leibnitz and Newton fought over the concepts because each knew that conserving both energy ((½)mv²)and conserving momentum (mv) was not possible. One or the other had to be wrong. Only after both scientists were dead did science begin pretending the both concepts could coexist in the same universe.

After 300 years there is still no Law of Conservation of Kinetic Energy, 1/2mv². No experimental data has been found to support it. It had to the thrown into a more general Law and given imaginary friends in order to pretend that it still worked.

We now have machines that make energy, but since this violates Leibnitzian physics the science world refuses to look at them. The world of science has long ago stopped being open minded.

[LustInBlack]

EXCELLENT discussion, this!

Pray continue.

James

>8]

[iacob alex]

Hi Murilo!

We have no mystery,if we can make experiments regarding gravity.

We have a charming meeting face to an unusual flow:we can see it(falling bodies),but not all the time(stable bodies).We must add the manner of this flow:accelerated.

So again we have mystery and charm when we ask "why?"

Maybe,as you said,that's the problem of a fish...an "inertial" one,this time,without answer.

As I stated,we can imagine an input, a black box and an output.

The input is a small gravitational unbalance(long arm-short arm type,in the up,top position).

The black box is your method,arrangement to develop,increase this unbalace due to accelerating gravity fall/flow.

The output(in the bottom,lowest point),is intended to be greater than the input.

If so,we can supply the friction,our utility and the most important fact, to remake the starting point of the process,unbalance.

We play gravity and (rotational) inertia,only.

The main question is this:can we get from a small gravitational unbalance,a greater inertial unbalance?

If so,we have the toy...

All the Bests! / Alex

[murilo]

Alex,
hi.
Look at that bascule, Alex... the bascule with two arms and/or ''any other similar device'' able to manage and ''compare'' different free masses... :)
I remember one, but I think it's not necessary to say it again... :|
Cheers!
M.

[iacob alex]

Hi Murilo!

If I take into account your term(basculer) as an overturn process,we can notice that the action-reaction interplay between two masses "m"(small one) and "M"(big one),can have two periods:

-the first period: "m" is the active mass,and "M" is the passive,reactive mass

-the second period: "M" is the active mass,and "m" is the passive,reactive mass.

We can have here a fall end over end action-reaction process .

So,we can make up an interplay between gravity and (rotational) inertia :one fall/"flow" into another and back.

If we have a retarded(decelerated) fall in gravity vs. a free,short time(accelerated) fall can we get and store more energy?

On this condition(let it fall up-down and slowly),we have an interesting difference...

All the Bests! ? Alex

[murilo]

Yes, Iacob,
if I understood you correctly, yes.

The are some ways to get this.

Question in this forum is to repeat everything or ''set'' all stuff before a start and put it on, without any stop. :)

Actually I'm thinking of my best project, wich you can find here in BW ''IDEAS'', at left first page.

I do believe in a geometric solution, preppared to be unbalanced and without any scape, opinion, emotion or gossip and any trust in the kinetic factors. If kinetics happen in my device, much better, but it's not a primary component of the conception.

Kinetic as you know, is a secondary stuff that ''dissipate'' easily, since it's tied on volatile time and velocity, even if one play with different momentum - I'm talking just upon PMs.

Regs.
Murilo

PS: look at this: ''Quote of the Day

"Humanity can be quite cold to those whose eyes see the world differently."
- Eric A. Burns, Gossamer Commons, 08-24-05

[path_finder]

Dear all,
I know I will be willipended hereafter as iconoclast, but anyway...
It's just a supposition, but perhaps Bessler included eight Ignatz clock mechanisms inside his wheel.
It this case he didn't need any external source of power, and can stop/start at any time, and let it run for three weeks (as mentioned) without to retrigger.
Here is a video showing the principle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTxnFPDe ... re=related
If this would be confirmed, this topic has to be set in the 'fraud' forum.

Scott please, be comprehensive. Don't cancel my account. Thanks.

[AB Hammer]

Path Finder

I disagree for Bessler's wheel would not have run the speed it did, if it where clock mechanisms.