Inertia against gravity...

[path_finder]

Another additional effect wich could be useful: the brachistochrone.
http://curvebank.calstatela.edu/brach/brach.htm
If you combine the gravity field with a specific path (in respect with the brachistochrone curve) you can have some success.
It's exactly what is made in this 'Perpetual motion toy' (see the URL: http://keelynet.com/energy/mptoy.htm
(The spiral ramp increases artificially the lenght of travel for a part of the balls)

Suggestion:
The half population of weights follow a 'brachistochrone' path between 12:00 and 6:00 and the second half of population a different path between 6:00 and 12:00.
What will be the result?
Nota Bene: I don't have the answer (I did never made the test).

[Jonathan]

If you have a zigzag of brachistochrones from 12 to 6, then the weights will come down faster than a zigzag of straight ramps.
The turtle toy is understood, as a gyroscopic effect: IIRC, there is an energy degeneracy (which is that a continuum of states have the same energy), so it can move among those states effortlessly. (This is the same effect as a rectangular block of three different dimensions: when falling, it will spin nicely about it's longest and shortest axes, but it would rather tumble than spin nicely around the medium length axis.)

[LustInBlack]

The turtle is very interesting ..

Personally, I seek the solution in chaos.. Chaotic phenomena are natural and thus, they are reproducible experimentally, mechanically / electronically..

Thus, if I find a period of chaos in a formula, that could produce an ellipse for example, or an interesting movement, I will try to reproduce the signal in a mechanical fashion ..

I even programmed a chaotic "browser" that can output me the formulas..

I find you approach interesting path_finder, sorry for being a bit rough with you..

[AB Hammer]

LIB

Chaos is kind of cool and with a little help I had one spinning at approx 200 RPM and speeding up, but it started to shake like a giant vibrator so I held it back.

[LustInBlack]

AB Hammer:

Really!?

What mech did you use if it's not secret!? ..

I'm also looking in stopping a chaotic behavior momentarily to get the function "primitives"/(to get the function to become linear) for a moment, to control the chaos ..

Quite easy in fact, just put a little controlled noise in there and you disturb the function enough for it to resynch.. If you could get this mech in chaos, and disturb it every now and then; thus halting it's chaotic behavior for a moment and resynching back, it could be interesting!


Btw, for those interested in chaos, I've got a little app I made, it's dirty and cheap, but I'm working on an upgraded version as we speak..

[AB Hammer]

LIB

It is a secret at this time, but I wanted to let you know you are not the only one playing with chaos. It's fun!

[LustInBlack]

Well I invite you to my private forum, someday we will discuss some chaos concept there...

[path_finder]

A very simple wheel can be made using the avalanche effect of the chaos:
Just take a certain number of cylinders, half empty but containing a lot of objects with different forms and weight (like in a garbage truck rearbox)
I though this concept by seeing the road works trucks delivering the materials.
If you observe well, the sand don't slip immediately but step by step.
It seems that the slope shall first reach a certain value from where the sand starts to fall. This cannot appear with the liquids where the granulosity is null.

It could be interesting also to try this concept with cylinders half filled with honey (or any product with a high viscosity).
If you fix these cylinders to the rods of the wheel, you will obtain globally an unbalanced wheel because the relocation of the masses is delayed by the viscosity.

If this works well, this will be a new market for the 'slime' (this sticky paste for the kids).
The only disconvenience of this design is the low rotation speed.

[path_finder]

I remember in the 'For few dollars in more' western-spaghetti movie, the 'colonel' states somewhere:
there are no stupid questions, there are sometime indiscreet answers
So who can give an answer to this one How were installed the weights inside the wheel?
Do we have anywhere any details?. This is an important point.
They were cylindrical (said Bessler) but were their axis colinear or orthogonal to the main wheel axis? Depending the way they were attached, some additional effects can be obtained or not.
Example: (it's just a suggestion, I never said that it was used by Bessler) a vortex effect, obtained by the wirling weights containing some mercury or rolling ball.
There are two main positions available, as shown hereafter in my picture:
Does anybody has a comment on this pure hypothetical absurd proposal?

[ovyyus]

They were cylindrical (said Bessler)...

Bessler never described the shape of his weights.

Wolff stated, "Before translocating the wheel, the inventor, who was performing the test for the officially appointed Commissioners, took out the weights and permitted one of them to be touched, wrapped in a handkerchief. He did not allow the weight to be touched on the end, but lengthwise, it felt cylindrical and not very thick."

I might speculate the weights were coin-shaped or sausage-shaped, both of which are cylindrical shapes and not very thick. But sausage-shaped might better fit Wolff's statement about only being allowed to touch the weights along their length and not on the ends.

How were installed the weights inside the wheel?

There appears no eyewitness reports which describe how the weights were removed and replaced. However, Wolff's first hand impression was of, "weights on the wheel's periphery". Therefore, it might rightly or wrongly be guessed that the weights were removed and replaced from an opening in the wheel near to the rim.

Your question about weight orientation within the wheel can only lead to more guessing in the absence of eyewitness reports.

[Stewart]

Hi Jiggawatts

It's a pitty people rely on little facts remains after hundred of years. What you are thinking is if the besslerwheel right infront of your eyes, then you have the ability to duplicate it. You set yourself inferior to the wheel. You do not believe that you can ever be better than Bessler and understand the wheel yourself. The downfall is that you're being control by what you so call "facts" which transfer down hundred of years. If people twisted that fact a few hundred of years ago, you would have no chance ever with your attitude. How could you gamble your belief and protect what you are not witness.

You're making assumptions about me and others - that's certainly not what I do or think at all. I don't rely on Bessler related material at all when researching and building free energy devices. I actually follow two separate paths when researching gravity wheels - one is just free research with no specific influences, and the other is studying Bessler's wheel and all the related texts and clues which could help as a shortcut to a solution. As you infer in your post it may well be better to go it alone and forget Bessler and that's fine of course, however I should point out that this is a forum which focuses mainly on Bessler wheel research and that there are many other forums which deal with free energy in general. But if you're someone who has decided they want to investigate Bessler's wheels and learn as much about them as possible with the view of trying to recreate them, then this is surely the best forum for information and discussion. So, if you've ended up here looking for reliable information I would assume you'd be pretty annoyed if, for example, you read a post by someone acting with an air of authority on the subject who stated that Bessler had eight weights in his wheel and witnesses saw him remove those eight weights only to find out later that no such evidence exists and it is pure speculation. You'd then probably wish someone had challenged the statement. If incorrect information is not challenged and corrected then this whole thing becomes one big perpetual wild goose chase! I'm certainly not interested in wasting my time participating in a such a thing even if others are.

I should also point out that there are more Bessler related documents from his time period than you probably realise. I have hundreds of copies of original documents from all around the world - enough to keep me busy transcribing and translating for the rest of my life probably! I'm amazed that, with Bessler and his wheels being such a big news event across the world and having been written about so much by people at the time, he should be struck from world history books so callously. Whether you believe him to be genuine or a fraud, his page in history is one of the most interesting!

I think there is enough information left by Bessler and eyewitnesses to help us recreate his wheels. As I've pointed out before on this site some of the existing translations of Bessler's works and eyewitness accounts are not accurate and can be improved. It's important to track down the original source document in order to verify the transcription and translation. As an example, I've recently managed to find sources for two of the main quotes we are familiar with (thanks to John for one of them) - and on examination of these have found extra information and also corrections to the existing translations which mean they now make much more sense (I'll post more about these in the New Year). So it is definitely worth studying in detail all the documents we can lay our hands on as you just never know what you'll find that could be a clue to help solve the wheel - and if nothing else it's all of historical interest anyway.

People said "seeing is believing". That is just plain wrong. It's "believing is seeing".

That's a bit of a cliché, but I do generally agree with you - we can do anything we put our minds to, just like Bessler. However, we don't need Bessler's wheel - the whole world could be enjoying free energy already - there's just no incentive for those with the money and power to implement it, quite the opposite in fact. The technology is not what we're lacking, it's the right motivation and mentality.

All the best
Stewart

[Stewart]

Hi path_finder

Nevertheless your comment about the eight weights is pertinent, but this IS NOT MY THEORY.
There are a lot of references reporting this fact.

There is no concrete evidence for there being eight weights in Bessler's wheels. I'm not saying there weren't eight weights in his wheels, there could have been, I'm just pointing out there is no written evidence from the time period that says there were eight weights. The only quote from the time we've seen so far that mentions 'eight' is the one that says 'the sound of about eight weights'. The links you provide are not from valid sources in Bessler's time but rather the opinions of people from our time. Please show me the original sources that prove there were eight weights. For example, where does this come from: "Eight heavy weights in the machine represent eight planets of the solar system" - I'm not aware of this being a quote from an original document from the time and could well be just someone's speculation or comments on their own attempt at reproducing the wheel. But I'd be happy to be proved wrong of course if there is an original source for this! You've also given a link to a passage from John's book, but again this is not an original source: "The wheel that Orffyreus made was said to have eight weights". John can you clarify where it was said that the wheel had eight weights please?

it's WRITTEN BLACK ON WHITE.

I'd have thought you'd realise that not everything written is true, particularly on the internet! You've demonstrated just what a mine field it is for people researching Bessler's wheels, with so much false information floating around. This is why I try to get to the true information and warn people of potentially unsafe information - I'm fed up with seeing people waste their time on red-herrings.

Were you can be true, is the possibility of different number of weights in the various versions of the wheel, and may be, twelve or more in the latest (biggest).

It's possible that there were a different number of weights in the different wheels, but it's not something you can be sure about. There could be the same number of weights only bigger, and they could be comprised of a number of smaller weights for ease of removal and transport.

All the best
Stewart

[path_finder]

Dear Stewart,
Thanks for your comments.
I agree that we need the almost accurate information as possible.
But you missed an important point: Bessler vorgot to leave his secret and no deep analysis of the textes neither of the pictures can give you more than nothing.
All the clues have been pressed like a lemon so many time, by so many hair cutters, that there is now only a microscopic chance to find an efficient new element.
For sure it's important to be sure that the number of weights is still unknown, that the internal mechanism is unknown, that we are absolutely ignorant, etc.etc
But this behavior will conduct all of us to the cimetery without having any concrete answer.

what we need is IMAGINATION!
This seems not to be your major concern.

I was previously a simple guest, reading in circle the same materials during four years with various colors. I'm pretty sure it will continue like that for years.
I was reticent, but when I came posting in this forum, I was hoping by my contribution to open some new opportunities for the newcomers to develop some new ideas.
If there is no way here to think, to imagine, to suggest some new methods, design or supputation without to be checked by the Inquisition for the only reason that Bessler did not used these solutions or that the textes don't mention these possibilities, I will be obliged to admit my error.
After a copple of weeks in this forum I have the impression to discover a group of 'janitor of the Temple' almost busy with the exegesis of the Bessler literature, instead to accept the new blood and to encourage the innovative suggestions.
Sorry, OK, I was wrong, I knocked at the wrong door.

For me it will not be a big deception, even if I'm still interested to know how Bessler solved the question.
(I have my solution based on the tripode 'flowerbowl' which will power my new merry-go-round for kids).
I wish to the other newcomers do not encounter this kind of deception.
I will ask Scott to close my account although his efforts for maintaining this forum are highly respectable (many thanks for him).
You will never read me anymore.

[LustInBlack]

What is that attitude seriously!?

I was gonna say you are right and you end your post like this.. What's that?! ..

I mean comon, nobody is stupid to the point of limiting his drive to the clues of Bessler! .. People here try different new things.. because as you say, there is nothing divulgued in the documents Bessler left behind..

People use their imagination more than you think dude!

Allons, reste ici t'en fais pas avec tout ca, on est une bande de sympathique luron! .. On fera un diner de con, tout le monde est invite, meme monsieur Pignon!

[ovyyus]

After a copple of weeks in this forum I have the impression to discover a group of 'janitor of the Temple' almost busy with the exegesis of the Bessler literature, instead to accept the new blood and to encourage the innovative suggestions.

path_finder, you've been reading this forum for 4 years. Therefore you should already know that we like to try to maintain a clear distinction between the historical accounts and creative speculation. I don't know why anyone would want to discount the actual eyewitness accounts of Bessler's wheel demonstrations in favour of pure speculation. Although I do understand how frustrating this quest can become at times.

Imagination obviously plays a very important role in the creative process. But when history and fantasy become hopelessly confused, we lose history.

But you missed an important point: Bessler vorgot to leave his secret and no deep analysis of the textes neither of the pictures can give you more than nothing.

There are numerous researchers (other path finders) who would disagree with your statement and who continue to search for and clarify meaning within the text and illustrations. As Stewart has already said, there is a great deal of documentation and the job of analysis is far from complete. I think your statement was made in haste.