The energy obtained exceeds the cost of creating the differential ...

[greendoor]

Here is a thought to inspire the pursuit of gravity wheel design ...

The Heat Pump is an energy device that is virtually a 'perpetual motion machine of the Second Kind', although never really freely acknowledged as such. The term Coefficient Of Performance has been coined to allow conservative science to distance itself from the very idea. Few people consider that the output of a heat pump could be converted and used to power the input, making it self sustaining. Or, cut straight to the chase and make a Minto Wheel or some other version of an ambiant heat wheel. Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind is doable, and not enough attention is drawn to this fact. Most people kind of doubt it when asked to consider it ... but the physics are not in question. Power is available from ambiant heat. End of story.

A Heat Pump regularly delivers 300% of the electrical energy input as thermal output. Clearly the energy comes from an external source - mainly solar. But the point I want to make is that these ambiant heat energy devices only work by virtue of a differential in heat energy. Heat flows into the heat exchanger because the heat exchanger has been cooled by the refrigerant.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that the energy cost of creating this potential difference in heat energy (what I call the 'differential') is significantly less than the total power output of the device. This is the defination of COP - and there is no question about this.

In discussions debunking perpetual motion or 'free energy', we are constantly told that we can only obtain energy if there is a potential difference between two different energy states. In other words a dipole. If there is no potential difference, we can create that difference - BUT - we are usually lead to believe that the cost of creating this difference will exceed the amount of energy finally liberated. This thinking has given 'perpetual motion' (of any kind) a bad name. The laws of thermodynamics were created based on the belief that perpetual motion was impossible, thereby creating a self fullfilling prophecy.

The heat pump is common proof that it IS possible to extract large amounts of useable power from a uni-directional energy source by creating a differential - and the energy obtained can far exceed the cost of creating this differential.

Heat flows from Hot to Cold.
Electrons flow from Negative to Positive.
Gravity flows from High to Low.

A working heat pump creates Cold, thereby causing external Heat to flow into this Cold - in far greater amounts than it took to create the Cold.

A working gravity wheel creates Low, thereby causing external Gravity to flow into this Low - in far greater amounts than it took to create the Low ...

Something to ponder ...

[primemignonite]

Most interestng and well done, greendoor.

This sounds like just the thing for Ovyyus and Fletcher, as well as for general thought and consideration.

I will study and consider it.

James

[Fletcher]

Hi greendoor .. do you have any web sites or readily accessible facts to verify the COP calculations you give ?

If it were true in the context you described couldn't your air conditioning unit power itself, even if you assumed 100% efficiency of conversion or have I missed the point here ?

[greendoor]

Hi Fletcher. Just check out the specs on any heat pump ... i've just bought a couple of Mitsubishi units that have a COP greater than 3:1.

Ordinary electrical bar or immersion heaters are extremely efficient, because virtually all the electrical Power consumed is turned into Heat. Very little is wasted as sound, or light or mechanical motion. Therefore if you purchase 1kW of electrical power, you get very close to 1kW of heat. Fans and reflectors and oil storage features just spread the heat around differently, but basically it's impossible to improve on the heat output of an electric heater ... until the Heat Pump ...

Here are some specs for a popular heat pump you can buy off the shelf in NZ:



MSZ-FB35VA Specifications



· Function: Cooling/Heating · Type: Single Split, Inverter
· Capacity - Cooling: 3.5 kW · Capacity - Heating: 4.0 kW
· Capacity - Cooling (min. - max.): 1.1 - 4.1 kW · Capacity - Heating (min. - max.): 1.5 - 6.0 kW
· Power input - Cooling: 0.89 kW · Power input - Heating: 0.90 kW
· Power input - Cooling (min. - max.): 0.26 - 1.12 kW · Power input - Heating (min. - max.): 0.48 - 1.90 kW
· EER(COP) / Star rating - Cooling: 3.93 / 6.0 · COP / Star rating - Heating: 4.44 / 6.0
· Sensible - Cooling: 2.91 kW · Dry Mode (Moisture Removal, Litre/hr): 1.0

Look at the power input for heating (0.9kW) and compare with the power output for heating (4kW). That gives a COP 4.44 for heating.

This is exactly why I am pointing this out. As an engineer and technical consultant, I am always surprised when intelligent engineers I speak to are surprised and sceptical about heat pumps. They sure sound suspiciously like a perpetual motion device of the second kind - but that's impossible, right??

There are two reasons that these units are not self-powering. The first: if anyone decided to do this, they would be killed and prevent by the oil tycoons. For sure. The second: there are inefficiencies in turning heat back into electricity. But it can be done.

Given: we can turn 1kW of electric power into 4kW of heat
Given: we can turn 4kW of heat into 1.5kW of electrical power ...
We can self power this system and have 0.5kW avaiable for some other use. We just have to bolt the components together.

The reason I mentioned the Minto Wheel is because if you simply want to turn ambiant heat into rotary motion, the simplest and most efficient way is to make a non-electrical heatpump that turns itself. The Minto Wheel is simply the rotary version of the Drinking Bird. It requires a temperature differential, which is easy enough to arrange shade and reflectors.

But the intruiging thing about heat pumps is that the device creates it's own temperature differential.

Nobody is claiming that energy is being created here. We all know where it's coming from. Basically, the energy comes from the external environment, the heat in the air or ground - which is basically solar power. No laws of physics are being violated.

I'm just saying, this is an amazing thing to me that warrants some serious thinking about ... and maybe the basic principle can be applied to other energy sources, such as gravity.

[Jonathan]

He's partially right, but COP is arguably a better measure of efficacy than efficiency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency

[greendoor]

Digging a bit further ... it seems the best heat-to-electricity conversion is around 20%. Heat Diodes are new technology that have the hope of reaching 33% efficiency soon. This is still too poor to allow a simple self-sustaining heatpump. In the meantime, i'm very happy to purchase 1kW of power and get 4kW of heat. I would be very happy to have a gravity wheel that allowed me to input 1kW of power and extract 4kW of power ... I feel the whole area of Free Power Amplification tends to get forgotten in the quest for self-sustaining over unity devices ...

But here is an interesting thing, and directly related to the original topic of my post:

A heat pump is basically a Stirling Engine in reverse. Now a heat pump delivers amazing COP, and is obviously extracting more power from the environment that we put into it.

But in reverse (a Stirling engine) the COP is rubbish - we waste a lot of energy to the environment, and get less power out than we put into it ...

We are taught that energy is neither created nor lost - we can convert energy from one form to another.

[greendoor]

Just because we don't (at the moment) have a highly efficient method of converting heat back into electricty doesn't mean that the power output of a heat pump is not real power.

4kW of heat is 4kW of heat. It is real power - real energy. We put in 1kW of real power, and we take out 4kW of real power.

A large proportion of the 1kW input power is used in creating a differential - we make the outside heat exchanger Cold. In return - at least 4kW of external heat energy now flows into the heat pump, so we can have the benefit of 4kW of heat energy inside the building.

We can use whatever terminology we like: anything that amplifies power is useful.

Can we make a gravity wheel that allows us to input 1kW of motor power, and extract 4kW of motor power?

These are just some ideas to stimulate looking at the same old problem from another perspective ...

Whatever Bessler did (assuming no fraud) - he found a way to allow gravity to do more work than it normally does ... just like a heat pump persuades ambiant heat energy to do more work than it normally does ...

'The energy obtained exceeds the cost of creating the differential' ...

[greendoor]

He's partially right, but COP is arguably a better measure of efficacy than efficiency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency

Could you please isolate any statements I made that you don't believe are correct? If i'm "partially right", there must be some statements that are true, and some statements that are false. I would like to know which ones you consider to be false ... for my own learning.

[docfeelsgood]

I have thought along these lines many times , using ammonia which boils at minus 27 deg. F. . a system i am quite fond of is the "Dometic" refrigerator . very efficient for kw consumed . i do believe others are already experimenting along these same lines and i havn't followed it in some time . with the brutal desert sun as a heat source seems like it should work . also research "Crosley Icy Ball" . they were introduced in the 1920's for rural refrigeration . you can do a lot with ammonia . and cheap .

[greendoor]

Yes - it's probably the best 'free energy' option available at the moment. A very good 'cold sink' is simply a parabolic reflector or mirror array to send the heat out into the cold of space.

I don't want to derail this forum off the topic of Bessler type gravity wheels. My point is that I believe heat pump work with very useful COP. They do this by creating a heat differential (cold), and the environment pours in more energy than was used to create this differential. It's a radical idea - which is why intelligent people find it difficult to get their heads around it. Most people seem skeptical of them, despite commerical products being readily available.

Can we use the same principle to induce gravity to pour more energy into a wheel than we put into it?

IF there was such a thing as a 'gravity shield' then anyone could build a working gravity wheel. The solar powered engines that we know work often work on this principle: it's easy to create a sun shield (simply a shade covering), which creates a differential, and we can use a heat differential to make energy flow.

But a heat pump does't use shielding. Maybe if we look at how it works: there are 4 main components

Refrigerant
compressor
expansion chamber
heat exchanger (2)

The Compressor raises the pressure of the Refrigerant, and forces it through a heat exchanger that gives of Heat indoors. The Refrigerant then flows to an Expansion Chamber where the pressure of the fluid is greatly reduced, and the temperature drops. The cold refrigerant flows through an external Heat Exchanger. It is at this very point that ambiant heat energy from the external environment freely flows into the Refrigerant. It does this because the refrigerant/heat exchanger is Colder than the environment. And evidently, the amount of heat flowing into this refrigerant is a lot more than the energy it takes to keep this processing sustaining.

What are the analogs in a gravity wheel?
Refrigerant is probably the moving weights
Temperature is probably Velocity
Pressure is probably Height
What would be a Compressor? Something that raises Height? Or Velocity? (I don't know)
What would be the Expansion Chamber? Something that causes Height to rapidly drop? Or something that causes Velocity to rapidly drop? (I don't know)

I believe Bessler spoke about falling snowflakes, and how they rotate. Is there something in the phase change between liquid water and solid ice that is useful here? Heat Pumps use the phase change between liquid and gas ...

Can we make a wheel behave like a solid turning into a liquid on one side ...

I don't know ... this is all food for speculation.

[primemignonite]

Hanging on every word, I am, greendoor.

If there is an answer to all this, as you write-of,
I am confident (judging by it's excellent tenor)
that you will be the one to find it!

(I just punched your greenie; you deserve it.)

Pray, do continue.

James

[greendoor]

Thinking along these lines makes me wonder again about the Milkovic Two Stage Oscillator. I've basically discarded this, because it seems to be just a fancy fulcrum. But maybe there is something in it ... maybe, just maybe, this is the analog of a heat pump. We have power input (human hand) moving refrigerant (the swinging weight). We have energy output (the fulcrum driving the water pump) and anecdotal evidence that the output power exceeds the input power. The fact that there are two stages could be similar to the low pressure and high pressure sides of the heat pump.

I'm speculating that at the point where the large fulcrum gets overbalanced by the smaller swinging weight, that maybe large amounts of gravity power enters the fulcrum .. similar to the excess of heat that flows into a heat pump ...

Is this too far fetched ... is this too simple ... too Bessler ...?

Thinking about the analogy to a heat pump creating a Low temp zone ... maybe the analogy for a gravity wheel is to create a Weightless or reduced weight zone? Do we really know how gravity behave when a mass is weightless? Obviously it has the same mass, but we know we can reduce the Weight? Can a surplus of gravitational energy enter a mass in this condition?

Consider weights oscillating on a spring ... if we installed a spring gauge to measure their weight, we should see the weight oscillate from high to low. At the heighest point, just before direction changes from ascending to descending, there would be a point of near weightlessness.

At that weightless point - can we take advantage? For example - if the weights were hanging stationary from a fulcrum, it would take a lot of energy to move the fulcrum and unbalance the weights. But at that point of weightlessness ... maybe we could move the fulcrum quickly sideways for much less energy expenditure?

Just chucking out ideas ...

[Fletcher]

Just because we don't (at the moment) have a highly efficient method of converting heat back into electricty doesn't mean that the power output of a heat pump is not real power.

4kW of heat is 4kW of heat. It is real power - real energy. We put in 1kW of real power, and we take out 4kW of real power.

A large proportion of the 1kW input power is used in creating a differential - we make the outside heat exchanger Cold. In return - at least 4kW of external heat energy now flows into the heat pump, so we can have the benefit of 4kW of heat energy inside the building.

We can use whatever terminology we like: anything that amplifies power is useful.

Can we make a gravity wheel that allows us to input 1kW of motor power, and extract 4kW of motor power?

These are just some ideas to stimulate looking at the same old problem from another perspective ...

Whatever Bessler did (assuming no fraud) - he found a way to allow gravity to do more work than it normally does ... just like a heat pump persuades ambiant heat energy to do more work than it normally does ...

'The energy obtained exceeds the cost of creating the differential' ...

Hi greendoor .. I'm following along with interest also - I've highlighted a part of an earlier post by you that I think is particularly poignant & worth thinking about, imo.

I don't think "Bessler found a way to allow gravity do more work than it normally does" - gravity does what it does best & is completely unbiased - it provides a variable force proportional to the mass that causes the same acceleration in all objects i.e. assuming in a vacuum.

This means the field or gradient potential which is the gravity force is automatically & instinctively compensating for different masses - an object starts with Pe [from height in the field/gradient] & as it moves under the acceleration due to gravity it looses Pe & gains Ke - at any point in the 'fall' of an object a static picture could be taken & the two types of energy added up - they both sum to the same amount of energy whether at the start or just before the end of the fall when it's all Ke & no Pe - ok, recap finished - what it means is that gravity causes masses to accelerate towards each other because of a gradient between them - gravity will give the exact same acceleration to an object regardless of whether it is moving with or against the flow of the gradient - that's why it is conservative - it cannot be fooled into giving a little less or a little bit more acceleration to an object depending on its direction of movement relative to the gravity gradient *bummer* [i.e. in practical terms, it is theorised in SR where a falling object looses a minute amount of mass but then it must gain an equal amount on the upswing in a circular environment ?]

So I think it extremely unlikely that "Bessler found a way to allow gravity to do more work than it normally does" - it is simply unbiased, an equal opportunity employer ;) - but it does make for a useful OOB system providing you can shift or lift a weight up & across at the appropriate time.

But cobble to its intrinsic nature a virtual heat pump to do that shifting & lifting to 'set' the OOB system & gravity could appear to do more work than it could normally do !

What could be bet on is that the method of using that environmental replenishing heat pump/sink is not obvious else it would have been guessed at by now - if this is what Bessler achieved then I think it unlikely that he 'crunched the possibility into existence' by intellectual prowess but found a facet of nature by trial & experimentation - the ol' "that's interesting" approach - just my opinions !

[greendoor]

Thanks Fletcher - I agree, "could appear" to do more work is a better choice of words. I think heat does what heat does, in a similar way that gravity does what gravity does. Neither can be 'fooled' - but something is going on in a heat pump, and I think it's noteworthy.

If we could just make a 'gravity sink' that behaves like the external heat exchanger ... I still can't decide what that might mean ... should we make a weight fall faster, or fall slower, or weigh more, or weigh less ... or is it a leverage function ... I don't know ...

[greendoor]

Actually - I think the heat pump magic happens in the expansion chamber. That is where the pressure of the refrigerant is allowed to suddenly drop. As the liquid flashes into gas, the temperature drops - creating the temperature differential we need. This happens when any fluid expands, but the phase change certainly helps too. The Venturi effect. Ever seen ice forming around a tyre valve as you let the air out? So this makes a cold zone, although we previously supplied the energy to allow this to happen when we pressurised the refrigerant. But this cold zone is allowing far more ambiant heat to enter the refrigerant ...

In a gravity wheel, if Height is the analog of Pressure, what is the analog of an expansion chamber? Is it the dropping of a weight - the sudden loss of Height? Or is it Impact - the sudden loss of Velocity?

Or another way of looking at the Expansion Chamber effect: the density of the refrigerant is suddently changed. Is there some way we can suddently change the density of a mass? I believe there is: the stork bill or peacock fan ... if we expand the volume of a mass, perhaps by way of a crystalline structure, then we can alter the density at will ...

Still pondering ...