The energy obtained exceeds the cost of creating the differential ...

[primemignonite]

"... I don't know ..." - greendoor

Perhaps that pathway out of Don't Know Land (where you seem to presently reside) may be found - just as it was with Bessler's little puzzlement itself - in the trick of attenuation of most intense, excluding objective focus, and then, rather, paying attention to things seemingly not of immediately-beneficent value to you.

Then - that once done - delicious, intellectually-nourishing fruit, as grown-of "mere" play (as Fletcher has indirectly and artfully alluded-to) may after all, drop into your no longer grasping hands, likely compliments of our Creator, as it most certainly DID into youthful brother Bessler's, centuries ago.

But . . . then again . . . there is always that irritating little matter of 'worthiness', isn't there?

What youthful wills do not dream of seizing mighty Excalibur from the jealous embrace of the rock, as a great King-to-be could possibly do, and did eons ago?

(Are YOU, greendoor, one of that most rare, august tiny number?)

'Maleficent' is the very province itself, of intense, excluding objective focus. (I've yet to know it to fail - refer to the history of the creation of the atomic bomb, for but one example) It is the ruination of both worlds, healthy creative productivity of the mind, and of human spirit.

WITNESS NOW! the supremely-evil fruits of The Money Masters, for tangible examples of it's works and ways, to best be avoided.

Regards

James

[greendoor]

Yeah, fair enough ...

I'm just throwing darts at a board here ... mainly for my own benefit, but if it helps trigger anyone else i'll be pleased. I've been around free-energy thinking long enough to know that it is pointless for an individual to try to get rich and famous from a free energy invention. The powers that be will ensure that you don't suceed - and if necessary you will be killed. A believe Bessler sort of knew this, but sort of fell for greed anyway. And I believe he was ultimately killed, and i'm would be surprised if his secrets weren't stolen and suppressed. The Art of War has never really changed over the centuries.

But I strongly believe that individual inventors, if they are smart, can create working free energy devices for their own benefit. And if ideas are shared, rather than hidden for greed of gain, then there is a greater chance of these devices becoming available to all. Just like Heat Pumps are know available to all - palpable free energy, even if they aren't self sustaining.

And yes - any form of power will always be abused. That's inevitable. But I think we would all like to see the power shift away from the oil lords. Just as the power shifted away from the British coal-fired industrial empire to the current day oil lords - when the time is ready, the change will come.

Bessler was a rare first-fruit out of season, an inspiration to us to keep going.

[DrWhat]

Bessler does talk of FORM, saying that a waxen vs lead sphere etc etc and its meltabilty is irrelevant as it is the FORM that is important. As if to say that the mass is not the key factor but the shape of the structure/s.

Obvious in some ways but confusing in others!

[primemignonite]

"Yeah, fair enough ..." - greendoor

Really?!

I have A NAME as well, not just Fletcher and others, God damn it!

Good luck!

James

[greendoor]

primemignonite/James - you seem to have a short fuse today - sorry i seem to have upset you.

I do not respond well to flattery, and if I seemed dismissive it was because of that. No hard feelings.

[scott]

Well put greendoor. James please cool it.

[rlortie]

Hello Greendoor,

I am not trying to sound facetious, but what happens to your
New Zealand heat pump specifications if your winter ambient temperature gets down below zero.

I had a heat pump for many years, it was not cost effective for winter heating. Both a 30 and a 90 amp circuit breaker were required for low temp resistance heating back up. when outside temperatures fell below
38 degrees F. they would kick in.

I now stay warm with natural gas!

Ralph

[greendoor]

Sure - efficiency drops off. 1kW input for 4kW output is best case scenario in milder temperatures. But the fact that this is even possible, ever, is my point in bringing this concept to this particular forum.

FWIW - I think conventional heatpump installations are crazy. But done for a price. Trying to extract heat from ambiant airflow seems less that optimum if you ask me. If you want to get serious about heat pumps in very cold climates, it probably makes more sense to extract the heat from pipes buried in the ground, which is warmer to start with. It also makes sense to trap as much of the heat available during the day into your backyard as possible, so it doesn't all dissipate during the night.

I believe it would be possible to bury a very well insulated oil reservoir for the purpose of storing solar energy from the day, and then extract it out with a heat pump during the night or morning when needed. In the event that all heat was extracted from that reservoir, it might be necessary to have another heat exchanger outside the insulated box, as a backup to switchover as necessary. Also for when cooling is required the non-insulated heat exchanger would be used, to allow the heat to dissipate.

But that would bump the cost of the installation up considerably, so it isn't done. But if building from new, it's what I would do.

I'm looking into a water heating system next, and i'm considering the combination of solar and heat pump.

[Jonathan]

(As requested). It is the interpretation of facts that is at issue, the asterisks being incorrect:

The heat pump is common proof that it IS possible to extract large amounts of *useable* power from a uni-directional energy source by creating a differential - and the energy obtained can far exceed the cost of creating this differential.

It is true that a heat pump uses energy (A) to move energy (B), and that the amount of energy (B) moved is greater than that (A) used to move it. But the energy liberated (ideally equal to A) by allowing the moved-energy (B) to flow back to where it had been is not the same as the amount of energy (B) which was moved.
Suppose, for a heat pump, you do work A, and you get out A+B of heat, giving a COP of (A+B)/A. If you then use a 100% efficient engine to extract energy from the differential, it will accept A+B of heat, emit B of heat, and do work equal to A. (The COP of the engine will be A/(A+B), even though we have assumed that it is a perfect engine).

[greendoor]

I think you are redefining the meaning of the word 'useable'.

If I want to 'use' a device to heat my room, and I desire 4kW of heat - I can install a 4kW electric heater and pay for 4kW per hour. Or some fuel burner of equivalent heat output. Or, I can 'use' a heat pump to get the same amount of heat while only paying for 1kW per hour. (Admittedly in a best case scenario).

That's all I meant by the word 'useable'. I am 'able' to 'use' it to heat my room.

I agree it is not possible to convert all of the heat back into other useable forms of energy.

I agree we are not creating energy - just transfering it from one place to another.

I still stand by my claim that 'the energy obtained exceeds the cost of creating the differential ...'

I would be very happy to have a gravity wheel that did this, even if it couldn't self start.

[murilo]

My 1¢:
- the working set of a heat-pump is partially the same as that an air compressor.
- when the air is pressed its content of heat energy will not be allowed to reservoir and this is why heatsinks are used at pressed air right before its entrance to reservoir, after pistons.
- the heat present in the air is pure energy, caloric energy, that may be extracted by pressure.
- if you pump the air with motor + pistons and if before you let it back to atmosphere you have a very good way to take out the heat, you'll recover much more heat power that you expended in that motor, in electricity kWs.
- classical use is for heating pool's water, and I have seen fabricants telling about almost a too good to be true harvesting heat factor.
- they say about a factor of 4,5 to 5 times of equivalent heat (kW) over each motor's kW ( for a such air temperature which I don't know)... this is a true over-unit!
- the heat of air is most from the sun and ambient... this means that it's poor where you more need it, f.ex., at the poles!
Cheers!
Murilo

[Fletcher]

Thanks Fletcher - I agree, "could appear" to do more work is a better choice of words. I think heat does what heat does, in a similar way that gravity does what gravity does. Neither can be 'fooled' - but something is going on in a heat pump, and I think it's noteworthy.

If we could just make a 'gravity sink' that behaves like the external heat exchanger ... I still can't decide what that might mean ... should we make a weight fall faster, or fall slower, or weigh more, or weigh less ... or is it a leverage function ... I don't know ...

Hi greendoor ... going back to a few things you said - entropy [hot flowing to cold, order to chaos] is one way & gravity is conservative, they do what they do - in fact we rely on their repeatability & stoic nature as they form the foundation of a lot of our physics understanding & explanations - so to 'fool' them into behaving differently is probably an irrational expectation, imo.

So could we make a man made gravity sink that behaves like a heat exchanger ? I doubt that it could be done in the macro-sense because it would mean rewriting a large part of Newtonian physics - rewriting it isn't the problem, it happens all the time when better explanations come along & new more thorough theories are peer reviewed - the problem is you first have to have some experimental abberation to cause you to believe there may be a 'chink in the Newtonian armour' & so far I don't believe that has been demonstrated in this context.

Actually - I think the heat pump magic happens in the expansion chamber. That is where the pressure of the refrigerant is allowed to suddenly drop. As the liquid flashes into gas, the temperature drops - creating the temperature differential we need. This happens when any fluid expands, but the phase change certainly helps too. The Venturi effect. Ever seen ice forming around a tyre valve as you let the air out? So this makes a cold zone, although we previously supplied the energy to allow this to happen when we pressurised the refrigerant. But this cold zone is allowing far more ambiant heat to enter the refrigerant ...

In a gravity wheel, if Height is the analog of Pressure, what is the analog of an expansion chamber? Is it the dropping of a weight - the sudden loss of Height? Or is it Impact - the sudden loss of Velocity?

Or another way of looking at the Expansion Chamber effect: the density of the refrigerant is suddently changed. Is there some way we can suddently change the density of a mass? I believe there is: the stork bill or peacock fan ... if we expand the volume of a mass, perhaps by way of a crystalline structure, then we can alter the density at will ...

Still pondering ...

In a gravity wheel the pressure analogue is the distance of separation in the field [height as you say] but only if the mass is free to move - is there an analogue of the expansion chamber in a gravity wheel ? - I think you are barking up the wrong tree here - gravity does what gravity does & changing the intrinsic mass value is realistically probably out of the question.

But studying further how the heat pump & venturi works is interesting - both rely on Boyle's Law of gases & Bernoulli's theorem - interestingly both are formulated from a position of Conservation of Energy [CoE] looked at at the local level & then working backwards to fill in the equations & balance them - they are the basis for some types of heat exchanger systems & of course the carburetor.

In order for a FE gravity supplemented wheel [e.g. a Stirling Engine analogue] to be OU it must not be bound within the balanced equations of local CoE [i.e. self sustaining rotation over & above ordinary system losses AND can do useful work externally] but must be bound to overall CoE in the wider environmental sense [the bigger picture], thus drawing heat from the environment to do work i.e. it would scrub heat joules from environment to do work & the greenies would love that :) - JMO's.