Grim's idea

[Jonathan]

I'm not getting it. How does the little yellow cirlce float, and why is it off-center? What are the other yellow circles for, and what keeps them from all being down at 6? How does the spring affect the pendula, its lever arm to them is zero? And how did my last post manage to get between Fletcher's double post?

[jim_mich]

The little yellow center circle is 'anchored' to the background and does not move. I could have just anchored the springs to the background but by attaching them to the circle I could un-anchor and move the circle then re-anchor, thereby moving all four spring attacments at once. The blue circle which I made transparent is also just anchored, and I played with moving it around too.

[MrTim]

I'm not getting it.

Me neither. Maybe a moving picture would help...?

And how did my last post manage to get between Fletcher's double post?

Maybe Fletcher's original post is being split and routed through 2 dif servers. Knowing little about 'puters, it makes sense to me. (I'm just glad to have the power back on 5 days after Charley....)

[jim_mich]

Sorry, I didn't take the time to present this new concept clearly enough. At the start I was just going to make a quick verbal post about the idea. Then I thought I should show a picture and I grapped a quick piece of a screen shot which may have confused more than helped.

Starting new... A wheel. Inner bumpers. Outer bumpers. Pendulums that swing between the bumpers hitting at points inline with the wheel axle. Hybrid springs combination compression / extension that have a neutral length where they don't exert force. They pull when extended and push when compressed. Each spring connects a pendulum to a fixed point above the axle wheel center. See sketch below.

How it works... The springs do two things. Being attached above wheel center they offset the effect of gravity on the pendulums. And having center neutral tension they allow the pendulums to oscillate in and out.

What happens... If the wheel is started with the top and bottom pendulums in an upward position they have stored energy. They fall straight downward hitting stops and bouncing back upward. Hitting the stops will not cause the wheel to rotate. And the pendulums average distance from the axle will not cause the wheel to be out of balance and to rotate. But since the pendulum swings in an arc there is inertial / centrifical forces involved. If the pendulum's swing is limited (by hitting stops) such that it can't swing its full arc then the centrifigul /inertial forces are unbalanced and exert a pulling force on the pendulum rod. Which rotates the wheel. But in doing so it consumes the excess pendulum swinging energy until the pendulum no longer hits the stops.

Bottom line... I've found a mechanism which will turn oscillating pendulum forces into wheel rotational forces. And it does not keel as the wheel is balanced. All that is needed now is some sort of mechanism that uses gravity and the wheel's rotation to increase the pendulum's swing when the wheel turns.

[Michael]

> While messing with this I discovered something new. It might be a piece of the puzzle. If you construct a wheel like I'm posting here and if the pendulums swing hard enough to hit the stops then it transferes energy from the swing of the pendulums to rotation of the wheel. I thought I had a self runner tonight, but NOT. What I found interesting is I could set the wheel to spinning first at any speed and the wheel would speed up even more, then continue to turn at a steady speed (running with no friction).

This is EXACTLY what Grim had stated. He said the pendulum's by the 1/16th spring tension impacted the stoppers and caused the wheel to accelerate but then destroyed itself. Kudos I guess to Grim. Where is Grim these days anyways? Has anyone found his actual photo of the wheel he made? I know he posted it once. Jonathan, any luck?

Reg.

Michael

[Michael]

A quote from Grim

>You'll are welcome to play with it, it's a pain in the butt to time, but it works, and can hurt you if care is not taken!
: Three pounds of lead turning in a blur, around a 15" perimeter.....

I never understood why he didn't try to perfect it.

This also from Brett Smith (Smithy) ;The device, if assembled as per the drawing "will" self start, but it is very important and nescessary to experiment with the weights, weight pivot position, weight stop positions, spring tensions, lengths, angles and above all the "timing" of weight transfer, many hours were spent playing with all of these "variables", the result is a device which is quite "viscous" and "destructive" in its operation, so keep your fingers out of the way!!

Reg.

Michael

[jim_mich]

Micheal,
Do you know the difference between 'exactly' and 'similar' and 'something like'? Exactly which part of my statement which you quoted is 'EXACTLY' what Grim stated? The part where I stated I discovered something new (which I did not know before)? Or was it the part that I thought this might be a piece of the (Bessler) puzzle? Or maybe my description of my wheel's construction is the same as Grim's (NOT). Or might it be the idea of weights hitting stops? Now that would be 'similar', not 'EXACTLY'. Or maybe the way that the weights hit the stops? No, Grim's hits the stops at angles, not radial to the axle like mine. Or maybe it was that Grim thought he had a self-runner last night, but didn't? Did I say a wheel destroyed itself? Most likely it was the part about a wheel accelerating? But that would be a 'similarity', as most all wheels accelerate (a little) or decelerate (usually a lot). So just what is it that I stated that was 'EXACTLY' what Grim stated?

Let's be a little more 'EXACT' here, Michael, and stop stating that everybodies ideas "are EXACTLY like" every other idea (which is the point I'm trying to make here). Grim's idea's and wheel design are his. Mine are mine. They are different. But all Bessler wheel ideas are wheels! Which makes them 'something like' each other. Some are more 'similar' than others.

Regards,

[Jonathan]

I get it! I thought the pendula were pivoted at the center of the yellow circles.
But, the stoppers being ona radial line doesn't direct the impulse from the pendula radially, as shown by the attachment. The red curve is the path followed by the pendulum, the line is the pendulum, the arrows are the impulse vectors, and the other two curves are the wheel and inner bumper, stopper not shown.
I think the wheel accelerates due to pushing and pulling through the springs on the offcenter anchor, and not centrifugal force imbalance. However, this is still interesting and we should try to think of a way to keep the velocity from leveling off.

[Michael]

You really need to calm yourself down a little Jim.
Is this exact?
> Let's be a little more 'EXACT' here, Michael, and stop stating that everybodies ideas "are EXACTLY like" every other ideas

Think not since that's the first time I said such.

Anyway not to get off track I shortly realized after typing that that I should correct what I wrote because I was not trying to discredit or dismiss your observation. Blame it on computer library time and needed sleep for not doing it sooner. The way I read your message at first I thought you may have misunderstood Grim's setup and all he talked about regarding his observation of said setup. What is exact was the use of the pendulums swing hitting the stoppers causing the wheel to move, and the general setup.
A smooth running oscillating wheel IS different than what Grim was talking about, and also an important discovery.

Reg.

Michael

[Trev]

Interesting stuff !
The original thread and drawing are here -
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wwwboard/me ... /2426.html

Trev.

[jim_mich]

I think the wheel accelerates due to pushing and pulling through the springs on the offcenter anchor, and not centrifugal force imbalance.

Johnathan is RIGHT! After trying over twenty variations a pattern developed. I could make the wheel turn right or left depending on how far above middle the center spring attachment was. But it still gets its energy to start turning from the oscillating pendulums which swing shorter and shorter until they almost quit oscillating when the wheel reaches its maximum speed.
Centrifical forces have nothing (or very little) to do with it speeding up. But if one could re-energy the swinging of the pendulums it would 'pump' the wheel around.

[Neo]

Hi Jim,

Could you use Bessler's external Pendulms as the crank to keep them moving?

[Kirk]

I always thought the pendulum was to keep it from overspeeding.

[jim_mich]

Hi Jim,

Could you use Bessler's external Pendulms as the crank to keep them moving?

That idea did cross my mind. But I don't know how. I'll give it some thought. Maybe an internal weight rotating with the wheel that swings/moves forward/backward as the wheel speeds/slows caused by the external pendulum pushing/pulling the wheel? I don't know.

[Michael]

Jim,

Have you looked to the list I opened up for some ideas? That mech could come in handy as a way to re energize.

Reg.

Michael