We don't care the Bessler wheel, the most important is to build a working wheel...

[path_finder]

Did you find any interesting suggestion?
Let me continue on the 'winch' design.
A rotation of 300 grades could be not able enough gaining for the spiral spring (a bigger force needs several turns of the spring).
How to obtain a full curse winder?
Just by using a basic property of the cylinder: let's roll the cylinder on a bigger wheel!...
We need a fixed wheel inside the main wheel (linked to the external frame through the main axis), with a radius equal to 'R/2-r' (where R is the radius of the main wheel and r is the radius of the weight's cylinder). Remember that the lenght of the rods has been choosen within the half of the main radius.

By rolling one on the other between 6:00 and 12:00 we will obtain a number of turns equal to: 'R/2-r' divided by 2r.
Let's make an approximation: if r is 16 times smaller than R, we obtain three and half (3,5) turns.
The drawing below summarizes this design (I will post later a full animation)
In red are the retractile cords rolled on the weights.
In blue are the retaining cords.
The rods can be pulled up by some springs in view to glue the rollers on the internal drum, not shown here.


Note, for the Bessler fans:
Remember that the witnesses mentioned that the size of the weights were not to much.
So smaller are the weights so bigger will be the number of turns.
In addition some witnesses heart something rolling inside.
In addition remember the small spining top and it's cord.
I'm not sure at all that this design was this used by Bessler. Everything above is pure speculation. But it's strange to find so many coincidences.
I'm waiting your opinion.

[Michael]

Pathfinder I did at one time wonder if there was some asymmetry to the weights. If you look at Besslers last hand drawing in MT you'll see there are circles lightly impressed in the weights that are offset to the centers.

[path_finder]

For those wich want to try to implement this kind of design, I can give some helpful information:

1. Sprag Clutch Freewheels:
http://www.marland.com/literature/pdf/c ... atalog.pdf
see in particular:
page 4: Typical applications
page 9: Torque arms for backstop
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/sprag/en-en/

2. The spring clutch
see the picture spring_clutch1.png below
You must attach an arm at one end of the spring and an actuator at the right place to lock/unlock it. Who said 'They are some springs, but not used as you imagine?'

[ectropy]

Back in the good old days before the advent of strain guages and load cells, weighing machines consisted of levers, knives and V bearings. The most important factor relating to the sensitivity of the machines other than the elimination of friction, was the placement of the COG. To record a weight, the mass was placed on the platform and a sliding weight was moved on a horizontal arm until equilibrium of the arm was achieved. This arm known as a "Steel Yard" was where all the nitty gritty took place. Imagine this steel yard placed in a fixed horizontal position and an imaginary horizontal line drawn along the length of the arm through the center of the beam. This line was known as "The Face Line" The sharp edges of the "knives" which located in the V bearings, ideally would extend above and below the Face line. (One knife faces up. the other down). This would shift the COG of the steel yard ABOVE the Face Line and contribute to the sensitivity of the machine. The final test of the machine would be to place weights (to the weighing capacity of the machine) on the platform and the Steel Yard would have to be in equilibrium when the sliding weight was placed in the relevant slot. With 2000 lbs on the platform a 2 ounce weight was added and the Steel Yard would have to rise to it`s stop AND REMAIN THERE. Removing the 2 ounce weight should require that the Steel Yard return to balance and not oscilate If the COG was BELOW the Face Line, adding a 1lb weight would scarcely move the Steel Yard and in fact the arm would oscilate for long periods before stopping. We have a pendulum. If the COG was too far above the Face Line the Steel Yard, although in equilibrium, it would not return to the balnce position when the 2 ounce was removed but would stay resting against the top stop. Inversely, if the Steel Yard was placed against the bottom stop, it would stay resting against this stop. My point is this; Many over balance wheel designs depict most of the action taking place BELOW the Face Line/COG of the wheel. Not a wheel any more but a pendulum. Yes obviously the COG would have to shift away from the axis of the wheel but ideally it should remain on, or be just a tad above the Face Line. Some food for thought.

[path_finder]

Thanks to Ectropy for his precision.
I'm surprised by the relative silence here.
Perhaps the 'working model' software is used with frenzy in the basements, looking if the clutch/spring design has a little chance to rotate?...

Anyway I continue my explanation on my own researches.
Hereafter is an animation showing a very simple way to realize this design.
Only a single weight has been shown for a better view.
The blue inner wheel is FIXED (only the big wheel rotates).

For sure the devices mentioned on the previous URLs above were not available at the XVIIIth century.
The idea is to implement a teeth rachet on the outer surface of the weight's cylinder.
Just a simple rod is attached with an axis on about the middle of the main arm, very light (in view to don't disturb the weights distribution) but enough strong for locking the ratchet.
This controller rod will lock/unlock the clutch at the right place.
When the weight comes at 4:00, the controller rod falls because it's own weight and makes free the ratchet: the spiral spring can then play it's actuator function (pull on the cord).
Also on the rod let's note the presence of a small finger wich limits the rotation of the controller rod within 90 grades. So when the controller rod unlocks the clutch at 4:00 o'clock, it cannot rotate a full turn and regain it's correct position at 10:00 for locking the clutch again.
The color of the weight indicates the status of the spiral spring:
- green: clutch free, the cord is pulled
- violet: clutch free: the spiral spring is rewinding
- yellow: the clutch is locked, the spiral spring is full rewinded

I hope now that we can receive very soon some shots from any model build by few readers.
Are you still here?

[broli]

@path_finder: Don't rely on other people. They are more interested in dead people and chasing clueless clues. They won't notice a running wheel even if it came knocking on their door.

The very least I recommend you get wm2d and try your contraptions in there to have a general feeling of how it would act.

[jim_mich]

Don't rely on other people. They are more interested in dead people and chasing clueless clues. They won't notice a running wheel even if it came knocking on their door.

I find your remark insulting to all the good people here searching for a solution.

[ectropy]

Hi Broli, Must admit I was rather shocked at your post. My thoughts were "What the ..... set this guy off. Went through the previous pages and could not find a reason for your statement. Is there a valid reason? Would perhaps put things into perspective. Tomorrow will be a better day. Best Regards.

[rlortie]

path_finder wrote;

I'm surprised by the relative silence here.
Perhaps the 'working model' software is used with frenzy in the basements, looking if the clutch/spring design has a little chance to rotate?...

When some people speak other listen, and those that listen well are considering your compositions and depictions. Silence can be golden and still waters run deep.

Reminds me of an old TV commercial:

When EF Hutton Speaks people listen.

Forums and threads such as this only receive heavy response when there is dispute, rebuttal and personal insinuations regarding the author.

Yes! you can be surprised of the relative silence, but in a good way. No response means you are meeting or exceeding the four "R's"; no Rebuttal, Rebuff, Rebut, and Rubuke.

You need to correlate all that you have posted here and put it in a book. Or do as Evert has done: http://www.evert.de/eft00e.htm#a03

Believe me, your input here is not going unnoticed! I only hope you are recognized if any of it should bear fruit.

Ralph

[rlortie]

@path_finder: Don't rely on other people. They are more interested in dead people and chasing clueless clues. They won't notice a running wheel even if it came knocking on their door.

The very least I recommend you get wm2d and try your contraptions in there to have a general feeling of how it would act.

broli,

As a free sourcing liberal who wants to give away everything that is not theirs. You really stepped in some sh_t lists. this time!

I bet if you were to take a poll you would find that path_finder is drawing more interest than any other poster on this forum.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Sprag clutches are better known as Sprague and a good source for them here in the USA is http://www.daytonsuperiorproducts.com/? ... agodDxTwqg

[path_finder]

Dear broli, Jim_Mich, ectropy and riortie,
Many thanks for your encouragement.
By opening this topic, and as explained in the first message, my intent was exactly the opposite of the polemical exchanges.
I wont only to share a part of my researches, and if possible with some realistic data instead some theoretical concepts.
I wont also encourage some other readers to share their experiments.
Even if there is a lot of constant readers, I'm a little bit sad do not have received any tangible feedback.
This was just my remark.
But I can also understand that other members want NOT share their discoveries. They have perfectly the right for.
I'm not so deceptive as broli, I think they are a lot of clever and respectable people in this forum.
Regarding the question of riortie on the book, I can say: I do have a DVD/book (combining texts, videos and animations) ready for publishing.
Most of I posted here above is contained in this DVD/book in a particular chapter, dedicated to Bessler.
For the moment this book is only in french. A full Web site version exists too. I have first to translate the both in english and german.
And you should understand why I'm a little bit anxious: if the interest is low for a population of fans, what kind of success can I expect with Mr Smith, Mr Dupont or Mr Meyer.
But my priority for the moment is not the book. I must first establish worldwide the 'Fondation pour la Promotion de l'Energie Gravitique'.
For the fun, here is the front cover of this DVD/book.

[Fletcher]

Thanks to Ectropy for his precision.
I'm surprised by the relative silence here.
Perhaps the 'working model' software is used with frenzy in the basements, looking if the clutch/spring design has a little chance to rotate?...

Anyway I continue my explanation on my own researches.
Hereafter is an animation showing a very simple way to realize this design.
Only a single weight has been shown for a better view.
The blue inner wheel is FIXED (only the big wheel rotates).

For sure the devices mentioned on the previous URLs above were not available at the XVIIIth century.
The idea is to implement a teeth rachet on the outer surface of the weight's cylinder.
Just a simple rod is attached with an axis on about the middle of the main arm, very light (in view to don't disturb the weights distribution) but enough strong for locking the ratchet.
This controller rod will lock/unlock the clutch at the right place.
When the weight comes at 4:00, the controller rod falls because it's own weight and makes free the ratchet: the spiral spring can then play it's actuator function (pull on the cord).
Also on the rod let's note the presence of a small finger wich limits the rotation of the controller rod within 90 grades. So when the controller rod unlocks the clutch at 4:00 o'clock, it cannot rotate a full turn and regain it's correct position at 10:00 for locking the clutch again.
The color of the weight indicates the status of the spiral spring:
- green: clutch free, the cord is pulled
- violet: clutch free: the spiral spring is rewinding
- yellow: the clutch is locked, the spiral spring is full rewinded

I hope now that we can receive very soon some shots from any model build by few readers.
Are you still here?

I too read your posts with interest path_finder - lots of mechanical variations & adaptations to think about - all good grist for the mill, especially if someone is struggling for a particular way to do something, then they may just have seen it or something similar to their needs in your threads - as an example a few months ago I was also looking at a sprocket design similar in appearance to your one here - what I find is that the sim programs are good but, I at least, have trouble simulating those types of things, though I recommend that you try them out, if you have the patience & time to learn them - animations are good but you are forced to anticipate every force & movement whereas a sim program will do that for you, reliably, so you get some immediate feedback about a design or mechanical arrangement.

In this case I wonder if the spring tension & constant wind unwind will create back torque issues in a wheel environment that will zero out the turning forces, let alone do any external work ?

Another way perhaps to do something similar is to have the stator cog have teeth for part of the cycle & then they cease - then have internal rim teeth on another larger radius stator so that the sprocket first engages the external teeth of the inner stator then the internal teeth of the next etc - this causes the rotor [sprocket] to reverse direction perhaps helping the spring tensioning & rewinding process ? Just variations of ideas.

P.S. btw, thanks for the earlier youtube links - I didn't know so many mechanical devices were there.

[path_finder]

Dear Fletcher,
Many thanks for your post.
This kind of positive behavior I was waiting for...

There is another simple way to implement the clutch-ratchet design.
I don't give all the details but you will find here in the two pictures some opportunities to think about.
I took two pictures at that time because when the small part was inserted inside, we cannot see usefully anymore.
(the central part has to be placed in that way where the teeth are located between 6:00 and 12:00 for the main assembly. The space between the screws is exactly the same than for the teeth of the freewheel clutch)

[broli]

I did not intend to offend anyone. I just stated what I see. On one side you have retired people with machine shops and experience and on the other young people with new ideas with little to no resources. Why cant these veterans help these youngsters out? It's called solidarity. I don't care about the money let's just help each other out.