A precursor to the Abeling Gravity Motor

[Grimer]

If the Abeling Motor does turn out to be the first acknowledged gravity motor since Bessler I have no doubt it will eventually have to surrender priority to a much humbler example, namely, the rubber band motor:

http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q171 ... 4f3070.flv

This is normally viewed as a heat engine. But if you think about it the source of heat is only required to replace losses. The energy exchange within the rubber band is adiabatic and therefore if the bands were to be well insulated the lengths would oscillate from short on the ascending side to long on the descending side.

This oscillation will mean that the maximum torque for the motor will occur at the oscillation speed of the rubber bands. The way the Bessler reaches a regular speed suggests that the same consideration applies there. In other words, even if all friction and air resistance were removed the Bessler would not accelerate indefinitely but merely to the resonant speed of its internal mecahnism.

[BAR]

Yes, I have seen longwave infrared cameras show rubberbands getting hot when they are stretched. Very neat. The thing is even everyday objects at ambient temperatures contains a huge quantity of energy. So even if no one can figure how Bessler did it with gravitation, tapping into that ambient heat would be about as good if not better from a power density point of view.

[Fletcher]

I know a couple of members here who would like that solution ;)

P.S. a few years ago I read a paper on rubberband engines - some passed thru a warm water bath [the source of the heat differential], another type used a candle held to one side of a vertical wheel - the rubberbands formed the spokes & the radiated heat caused the rubberbands to contract pulling the axle towards the rim [well really the rim moved towards the axle] - this changed the CoG producing imbalance & torque, so it really was a type of gravity wheel.

The rpm was determined by how fast the rubber could give up its heat to the ambient atmosphere as a radiator does, which made them quite slow by comparison to Bessler's wheels IIRC.

I was quite taken with them for a while :)

[BAR]

Hehe, looking at that video I did not realize the rubberbands were the spokes! I thought it was that spool. Never heard of such a novelity before. Ironically before I became interested in Bessler and gravity engines, I was looking at thermomagnetic engines that Tesla had built. I was trying to design my own but instead of using nickel or iron I was considering Monel or Manganese Arsenide. Needless to say I never got it off the drawing board. If my self regenerative gravity engine idea fails then I have something to fall back on. ;)

[AB Hammer]

BAR

LOL Plan B is always a good idea, along with plan c, d, e, f, g, h, and so on. It is just the game of invention. Myself, I always keep my eyes open. For it is not always the goal but what we find on the journey.

[Grimer]

@ Fletcher
@ BAR

The point I am trying to make is that the rubber band motor does not need to get heat from the atmosphere or dump heat to the atmosphere if the band are insulated Carnot style.

If the bands are insulated then the energy exchange is between the atoms and the long chain molecules within the rubber and is adiabatic. In other words no heat enters the rubber band from the outside or leaves the rubber bands to the outside.

Stewart's thread on children's toys is relevant here because the spinner toy sometimes known as the humdinger is a good example of the hierarchical energy exchange which takes place within the rubber band.

The toy comprises a stiff card with two holes drilled at the center and a loop of string threaded through the holes. To play grab the two loop ends and pull your hands apart so that a loop end rests behind the joint of each of your middle fingers. Position the disc so that it's centered slack on the string, then start spinning the toy away from you until the string on either side has several twists in it."

Pulling rhythmically on the loops spins the disc at high speed. As the speed of the disc increases, the string shortens, and vice versa.



I looked for an image of a spinner toy on the Web and came up with a historically interesting example.



This tinplate spinner commemorates the Anglo-Japanese alliance (1902 to 1923) that safeguarded the two countries' respective interests in China and Korea from the territorial ambitions of Russia.

The motion of the disc/spinner represents the rotational energy of the atoms in the long-chain rubber molecules. As heat is applied and the atoms speed up and the chains shorten. This behaviour is anti intuitive because with few exceptions (ice, bismuth) one expects the application of heat to increase a material's length.

[Michael]

That's also called a torsion spring. At least as old as ancient Rome, used for many things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista

[Grimer]

If we include DNA then it's older still. Is DNA analysed in terms of strain energy cycling I wonder? The way it folds upon itself does rather remind one of the way the the rubber motors for model airplanes behave when being wound up.

[greendoor]

I wonder if the long chain polymers used as Viscosity Index improvers in engine oils behave the same way as rubber ... they certainly behave counter-intuitively by increasing in viscosity with increasing heat ... I hadn't thought about them much before, but I wonder if they increase in density with increasing heat ... that could be interesting in the context of an adiabatic heat engine ...

[path_finder]

Dear Grimer,
The use by Sjack Abeling of some glass materials can be explained by a simple reason: the glass powder has an excellent friction coefficient and can be glued on other surfaces.
If you want to use a belt with a good friction the problem is to glue the glass powder on the substrata.
This can perhaps explain the link between him and a company having a good expertise in such as applications (glass powder on flexible surfaces).
The rotation of the weights on their own axles (accumulating energy) will transfer a good ratio to the belt only if the contact is perfect.
Just a suggestion.

[BAR]

Grimer I do not understand, are you trying to explain about utilizing heat energy or are you admiring helical structures?

[Grimer]

'Fraid I did rather allow myself to be drawn off topic. Sorry about that.

I also seem to have failed to get across that the so called Rubber Band Heat Engine is NOT a heat engine but a gravity engine. Heat is only needed to replace losses. If you completely insulated the rubber bands then the Rubber Band Heat (allegedly) Engine would be a Rubber Band Gravity Engine,

[Grimer]

I am resurrecting this thread cos I can now see a way in which gravity can be substituted for heat in the Rubber Band Motor

When I claimed that you didn't really need heat and that if you insulated the bands adequately you would have enough gravitational energy generated to cover losses and leave some left over, I was flying a kite. I can't prove that but no one has come up with a proof that it isn't true either. When I first presented the argument on the Steorn forum I simply received the usual barrage of insults but no rational argument against my thesis.

I can now see how the shortening and lengthening of the spokes can be brought about by the action of gravity alone. In principle the solution is very simple though no doubt the practical implementation will take a lot of head scratching to obtain a workable motor.

Indeed, if Bessler's wheel worked on as simple a principle then I'm not surprised that he covered it up.

If we substitute the rubber band spokes by a bowed spring steel spokes, a thin leaf spring say. Then on one side of the wheel gravity acting on the convex upward self weight of the spoke will straighten it out and thus lengthen the spoke. On the other side gravity acting on the convex downward self weight will increase the bowing and shorten the spoke. This will give rise to an eccentric loading of the rim in exactly the same way as takes place with the Rubber Band Motor.

Increasing the number of spokes will increase the power of the motor.

Well Jim. let's see if you can find the flaws in the argument before I do.

[primemignonite]

Marveling and admiring, I do observe this elevated, dispassionate discussion.

Of course, it is way too deep for me (us), but nevertheless I can (we can)
perceive the coarse essentials from below, in sincere appreciation if not
perfect understanding.

All that having been said as was necessary to do, the remaining questions
of pertinence become:

Are we to HAVE a tangible Perpetual Motion realized out of this mind exercise,
and if so, WHO is to build the creature?

In a heady condition of delirious respect, admiration and anticipation, as ever
I remain

Yours Truly

James

PS It is gratifying and encouraging to me to know, that former captives of
"THE SYSTEM" can reform, like villainous wrestlers gone-good. Hope DOES
spring eternal!



(I detect as strong scent of
tuberose here! This is NOT
the Eighteenth Century!)

[Grimer]

Just for fun I thought I'd look at some of Bessler's drawings of his wheel and see if I could detect any signs of eccentricity of the axle relative to the circumference.

Surprise, surprise. The very second figure I looked at showed a significant eccentricity. One doesn't need much eccentricity as is shown by the Rubber Band Motor.



Is Bessler trying to tell us something in this picture? Is he saying?

"I got there first."

Edit: Problem is, the screw seems to be turning widdershins which means that the wheel has to be turning clockwise - the wrong way as far as eccentricity is concerned.