While exploring the mechanics of pendulums it struck me that no account was being taken of the strains in the pendulum string which connects the bob to the pivot. In all the calculations this was being taken as infinitely rigid and suffering no strain. Clearly this is where half the earth reaction is being thrown away. The earth 1/2.mv^2 in other words.
The I remembered something I had seen about swinging pendulums and lever arms. I couldn't remember the chaps name except that it was east European. Eventually I found the reference I was looking for. His name is Milkovic and he has a pendulum device which in effect uses the energy put into the string.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6138700872
He obviously realises he has got hold of something important but I don't think he really understands exactly what it is and why it works.
Milkovic's work is very relevant to Bessler's wheel since that must also be dependent on using the missing 1/2.mv^2. the negative angular momentum.
Serendipity
Moderator: scott
re: Serendipity
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
Re: re: Serendipity
All very true. But we have the legend of Uncle's toy. Suppose that were true. Not as reliable or well vouched for as Bessler's or Pop's wheel, admittedly but definitely of the same genre.greendoor wrote:I'm a little uncomfortable comparing fluid flow dynamics to solid mass kinetics. Tornadoes & vortexes & Schauberger etc have fascinated me for years, and I don't know if anyone really knows exactly what is going on. (The more certain somebody thinks they know everything, the more likely they are missing everything).
In a fluid vortex, I don't think we should overlook multiple effects: gravity, kinetic, chemical, thermal, electric, earth rotation, etc, etc. Moving particles do what moving particles want to do - and each one is subject to multiple forces, and in turn affect each other. Too hard for my brain.
In particular, I think the following effects are worth noting:
Coriolis Effect (99% of Tornadoes rotate Cyclonically - and we still say that they are too small to be affected by the Coriolis Effect?)
Ranque Effect - rotating particles are subject to centrifugal force and this tends to create higher density/higher pressure at the periphery, and lower density/lower pressure at the core. This means the periphery is hotter, and the core is cooler. Almost a Maxwell demon effect ... the creation of a cold zone means that ambient heat energy can enter the core of the vortex and feed it with surplus energy ... I think this is a very significant factor in explaining energy gain ... how different is this from a Heat Pump?
People who have survived being sucked into a tornado vortex have commented on the intense electrical phenomena. Our earth is surrounded by an electric field (as well as magnetic) and there are millions of volts available as we ascend vertically. It seems to me that when we have a conductor (water) to 'short out' this field, we get lightening, which is plasma. Tornado spouts are no doubt tapping into this available energy too - I believe Faraday did some amazing experiments with generating high voltages by dripping water ... can't be ignored in a Vortex situation ...
Vortexes are very cool, but I think rolling balls in a Vortex won't have as much fun as fluid particles. I think the strains involved in directing the vertical force of gravity into horizontal force will basically divert the force and waste it. I don't see any special 'shapes' or 'paths' as contributing to free energy.
I could be wrong, but my preferred theory does not depend on anything other than the relentless vertical pull of gravity. The trick is not to waste that force on anything other than Accelerating a Mass.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
Milkovic comes off as being a deluded psuedo-scientist. I think his two stage oscillator is fascinating - full credit for that. But I can't believe anyone could be so stupid as to try to prove surplus energy by attaching shaker lights (LEDs powered by a coil & magnet that respond to motion). He put one on the input pendulum, and several on the output lever, and this was supposed to prove overunity?? He could equally have put several on the pendulum, and one on the output lever to "prove" massive loss. That is not a sign of adult intelligence. This guy has had years to prove overunity, and simply hasn't. I think he has Milk'd it for all it's worth ...
What is most interesting is how complex such a simple mechanical device can be, and how it can divide the academics and mathematicians.
I got really excited about Milkovic when I first saw the concept - but gradually I lost hope in this. Basically, it's a lever and a pendulum. Neither on their own can create energy. The pendulum is robbed of angular momentum IF the lever moves. If the lever is stalled, the pendulum is just a pendulum. But if the lever moves, energy is taken from pendulum, as it is robbed of exactly the same number of degrees of movement as the lever.
I think the Milkovic 2SO wows us with two effects that are useful when matching human muscle energy to a mechanical load. Leverage, obviously, which is about the same as a bicycle. It obviously helps tremendously in matching the load. And energy storage via the pendulum - which allows our muscles to take a break and recover chemical energy. There is also a fun element, so all things considered this is an excellent village pump device, but not free energy.
It's closely related to the Eqyption pump idea, which is a lever beam, and the operator walks back & forwards, unbalancing it with a strong torque. This would be a very fun way to pump a lot of water, but not free energy.
What is most interesting is how complex such a simple mechanical device can be, and how it can divide the academics and mathematicians.
I got really excited about Milkovic when I first saw the concept - but gradually I lost hope in this. Basically, it's a lever and a pendulum. Neither on their own can create energy. The pendulum is robbed of angular momentum IF the lever moves. If the lever is stalled, the pendulum is just a pendulum. But if the lever moves, energy is taken from pendulum, as it is robbed of exactly the same number of degrees of movement as the lever.
I think the Milkovic 2SO wows us with two effects that are useful when matching human muscle energy to a mechanical load. Leverage, obviously, which is about the same as a bicycle. It obviously helps tremendously in matching the load. And energy storage via the pendulum - which allows our muscles to take a break and recover chemical energy. There is also a fun element, so all things considered this is an excellent village pump device, but not free energy.
It's closely related to the Eqyption pump idea, which is a lever beam, and the operator walks back & forwards, unbalancing it with a strong torque. This would be a very fun way to pump a lot of water, but not free energy.
Uncle's would never try to trick a kid would they? Nah ... probably not ...
I would love to be proved wrong about these special 'path' theories, but I think they only just prove how correct Newton was. (Just as Bessler says his wheel does not violate these established laws).
The Boonsburg Egg is another one to investigate ... but unfortunately the inventor seems as nutty as a fruitcake. Which is fine: genius & madmen both use their brains more than normal people. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day - so we should explore nutty halfbaked theories, definately.
The Boonsburg Egg is a simple eccentric mass, curved path device that also make it easy and fun for humans to easily lift heavy loads and transport things. I still think the basic benefit is torque multiplication via leverage, and allowing muscles some recovery time. Interesting stuff, but when applied to mechanical devices the benefits aren't much different to a good gearbox or chain drive ...
I would love to be proved wrong about these special 'path' theories, but I think they only just prove how correct Newton was. (Just as Bessler says his wheel does not violate these established laws).
The Boonsburg Egg is another one to investigate ... but unfortunately the inventor seems as nutty as a fruitcake. Which is fine: genius & madmen both use their brains more than normal people. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day - so we should explore nutty halfbaked theories, definately.
The Boonsburg Egg is a simple eccentric mass, curved path device that also make it easy and fun for humans to easily lift heavy loads and transport things. I still think the basic benefit is torque multiplication via leverage, and allowing muscles some recovery time. Interesting stuff, but when applied to mechanical devices the benefits aren't much different to a good gearbox or chain drive ...
They are not creating energy. They are getting energy from the interaction between the gravitation and the earth fields. They are getting some of the 1/2.mv^2 which is normally ignored because the system is not optimised.greendoor wrote: ... Basically, it's a lever and a pendulum. Neither on their own can create energy... .
To give an example from my own discipline. If I have a prestressed concrete component with the compression element very high stiffness and the tensile element with a very low stiffness then all the energy of the system is in the strain energy of the steel.
If on the other hand I have a balanced system where the stiffness of the two components is equal then I also have an equal amount of strain energy in the concrete.
Algebraically the strain energies are zero but arithmetically they are not and it is the arithmetic strain energy which is available if you go the right way about capturing it.
The situation is the same as with the Ranque-Hilsch tube where you have a cold and a hot output. The hot to ambient temperature drop is available to drive a Stirling but the cold to ambient is also available.
The fact that it drives the Stirling in reverse is no hindrance to its energy being used. Obviously, in practice one would simply use the hot as the source of heat and the cold as the sink.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
re: Serendipity
Many thanks for your constructive and encouraging post. I hope thinking about tornadoes can distract you from thinking about earthquakes. Glad to hear you came through it OK.greendoor wrote:Nice work Frank. I think the relationship to a Vortex is very interesting. Nature finds very efficient and elegant ways of using energy.
http://merlib.org/node/3262 - just found this while checking the spelling of Richard Clem's name ...
Another very interesting topic that may be related ...
http://www.enterprisemission.com/Von_Braun.htm
In a nutshell - with the launch of Explorer 1, Von Braun discovered that the laws of Energy were violated ...
The solution to his problem appears to be very much related to Bruce DePalma's "spinning ball" experiments. Basically, a spinning ball - or a spinning rocket - travels higher with a fixed energy input than the same ball or rocket without spin. Clearly non-Newtonian .... and a potential source of energy creation (or at least requires a new definition of energy)
I have selected a quote from this site that I think you (Frank) should be very encouraged by:
Quote:
"The [technological] availability of free energy from as simple an experiment as colliding a rotating object with a non-rotating one opens up the development of other machines for energy extraction and propulsion which may be more convenient to handle than the extraction of energy from the collision of a rotating object with a non-rotating one [emphasis added] ...."
Make of this what you will ...
Thanks from earthquake devastated Christchurch - not much fun here at the moment.
I've copied your post from the Adiabatic Energy Exchange thread and replying to it here as well.
It is interesting for me to find that this Serendipity thread was started just a month after I joined the forum.
Big jigsaw pieces are now beginning to come together nicely.
I can now see that hydrostatic pressure is Jerk strain energy. This is not really surprising since hydrostatic pressure is three dimensional and Jerk is d³x/dt³, the third derivative of position with respect to time. Consequently release of hydrostatic pressure as when a hole is punched in a container and water spouts out is release of the "bounce" component of the water pressure. In a fluid vortex there is vertical gravitational potential gradient - and less obviously a horizontal pressure potential gradient. The pressure every where at the vortex surface is atmospheric and it increases as one moves away from the surface in the horizontal plane until it is equal to the head of water above that plane.
I can also see the answer to a question which has puzzled me for decades.
Many years ago as a result of research into the strength properties of road materials I discovered an equation of state for water, viz. PV^6 = a constant. I published the result inter alia in a paper to the Southampton Engineering Materials conference. Professor Chaplin has also published an updated version on his Properties of Water website. I never understood how the power 6 arose but now I do. All materials consist of two phase, a quasi-SOLID phase and A quasi-FLUID phase, the first in compression, the second in balancing tension. I now realise that the sixth power law results from the interaction of these two hydrostatic, i.e. Jerk, strain energies. You can find the Southampton conference .pdf on my website.
Interestingly enough the sixth power law turns up in other experiments (page 39 of UBIQUITY by Mark Buchanan) and even in scrunching up sheets of paper.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2002/ ... s.research
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
Thanks for bringing this old thread back Frank. I can see that i've changed my thinking since 2009.
When I said above: "I would love to be proved wrong about these special 'path' theories, but I think they only just prove how correct Newton was. " ... I can see that I was thinking only in two dimensions.
A vortex clearly requires 3 dimensions and I can that maybe there is a "special path" in 3D that could be exploited.
I keep coming back to Force x Time as the source of Acceleration and hence Momentum & Energy. Imagine a ball rolling down an inwardly spiraling vortex path ... we have the downwards vector g-force accelerating the mass. But we also have an inwards horizontal centripetal force from the spiral, pushing the ball inwards, against the natural centrifugal pseudo force (inertia) of the ball. Where does this force come from? I believe it is merely a reaction force, and therefore it comes directly from the same g-force.
We know that a spinning skater can increase angular momentum by pulling their arms in to their body. This require muscular energy input. So the ball falling down the inwardly spiraling vortex will be increasing in velocity for two reasons: acceleration from the vertical force x time, and acceleration from the horizontal centripetal force. (Which as far as i'm concerned is still the same g-force).
So my simplistic view is that maybe this is a way to extend the Force x Time = Acceleration of a falling mass. Given a fixed Height - a Mass can be allowed to fall for variable amounts of Time, and yet be constantly Accelerating (one way or another) during the descent. If we use highly elastic, low friction materials (e.g. steel balls in a steel spiral) then most of the acquired Momentum should be available at the bottom.
Now imagine two vortex spirals - connected like an hour glass. Let the balls fall down the inward spiral, accelerating all the time - and then enter the outward spiral. As far as I know, the ball would not lose any momentum - it would have to keep increasing in momentum(?)
Not sure if this worth anything. I imagine this would like the mechanical equivalent of a Venturi, or similar to the vortex tube. Both of these create temperature differentials that allow ambient heat to enter the system. Maybe a mechanical venturi or vortex tube can create similar differential that allows extra gravity acceleration to enter a system (?)
Dunno - this is a half baked idea that I haven't thought through, and I don't have the time right now to dissect it ...
Later.
When I said above: "I would love to be proved wrong about these special 'path' theories, but I think they only just prove how correct Newton was. " ... I can see that I was thinking only in two dimensions.
A vortex clearly requires 3 dimensions and I can that maybe there is a "special path" in 3D that could be exploited.
I keep coming back to Force x Time as the source of Acceleration and hence Momentum & Energy. Imagine a ball rolling down an inwardly spiraling vortex path ... we have the downwards vector g-force accelerating the mass. But we also have an inwards horizontal centripetal force from the spiral, pushing the ball inwards, against the natural centrifugal pseudo force (inertia) of the ball. Where does this force come from? I believe it is merely a reaction force, and therefore it comes directly from the same g-force.
We know that a spinning skater can increase angular momentum by pulling their arms in to their body. This require muscular energy input. So the ball falling down the inwardly spiraling vortex will be increasing in velocity for two reasons: acceleration from the vertical force x time, and acceleration from the horizontal centripetal force. (Which as far as i'm concerned is still the same g-force).
So my simplistic view is that maybe this is a way to extend the Force x Time = Acceleration of a falling mass. Given a fixed Height - a Mass can be allowed to fall for variable amounts of Time, and yet be constantly Accelerating (one way or another) during the descent. If we use highly elastic, low friction materials (e.g. steel balls in a steel spiral) then most of the acquired Momentum should be available at the bottom.
Now imagine two vortex spirals - connected like an hour glass. Let the balls fall down the inward spiral, accelerating all the time - and then enter the outward spiral. As far as I know, the ball would not lose any momentum - it would have to keep increasing in momentum(?)
Not sure if this worth anything. I imagine this would like the mechanical equivalent of a Venturi, or similar to the vortex tube. Both of these create temperature differentials that allow ambient heat to enter the system. Maybe a mechanical venturi or vortex tube can create similar differential that allows extra gravity acceleration to enter a system (?)
Dunno - this is a half baked idea that I haven't thought through, and I don't have the time right now to dissect it ...
Later.