I know someone who not only signed a non-disclosure to the person being mentioned, but also lost out $2000.00 dollars to said person being mentioned, and ended up seeing nothing. I wonder if it's the same person you aren't mentioning eps?
Reg.
Mike
Tinkerer say wheel works.
Moderator: scott
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epistemologicide
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
micheal, private message me and ill respond.
see it could be an alias as well. but ill give you the infomation i have.
see it could be an alias as well. but ill give you the infomation i have.
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Hi epistemologicide,
Why did you pay $80 for each non-disclosure agreement? I've signed several non-disclosures over the years (including one with 'the tinkerer' some time ago) and none amounted to more than the cost of a print out and a stamped envelope. Did these people charge you to sign their agreement???...point is they cost me 80$ a pop, and now i dont sign them any more...
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
The tinkerer emailed me a non-disclosure many months ago which I copied, printed and signed. My bank notarized it for no charge. I scanned it, emailed it and snail mailed it. Total cost about a dollar for postage and envelope.
I have seen good quality videos of his whole wheel while not running and detailed close ups both running and not running. I've seen one poor quality video of a whole wheel self starting. I've seen pictures of different wheels that have been built over time. Some videos were taken with a digital camera from a VCR tape on a TV screen. Others were digital camera short video clips, very crisp when still but blurred when turning.
I know very well how to build the tinkerers wheel. I just don't see a reason why it should work? I know it will not keel. So if there is some unrecognised effect of inertia or centrifical force that gives it just a tiny amount of extra push then it would speed up just as the tinkerer says it does. I don't know!
I have seen good quality videos of his whole wheel while not running and detailed close ups both running and not running. I've seen one poor quality video of a whole wheel self starting. I've seen pictures of different wheels that have been built over time. Some videos were taken with a digital camera from a VCR tape on a TV screen. Others were digital camera short video clips, very crisp when still but blurred when turning.
I know very well how to build the tinkerers wheel. I just don't see a reason why it should work? I know it will not keel. So if there is some unrecognised effect of inertia or centrifical force that gives it just a tiny amount of extra push then it would speed up just as the tinkerer says it does. I don't know!
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Number Six
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Hi. I think the tinkerer really has something here. In order to design a wheel that 'has a motion that continues indefinitely without any external source of energy until the parts wear out', just ensure the parts wear out real fast. How about bearings made of Jello?
If the considerable amount of time I have invested in this quest showed signs of bearing fruit, the (possible) disintegration of one model would be a small price to pay to convince myself I had cracked it. Any deterioration in the device would be useful feedback for improving the structure. A self turning wheel that is not allowed to turn is of no use to anyone.
If the considerable amount of time I have invested in this quest showed signs of bearing fruit, the (possible) disintegration of one model would be a small price to pay to convince myself I had cracked it. Any deterioration in the device would be useful feedback for improving the structure. A self turning wheel that is not allowed to turn is of no use to anyone.
Questions are a burden to others
Answers are a prison for oneself
Answers are a prison for oneself
Re: re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Actually that wasnt the picture I was thinking of but yes the same basic idea, there is however a large part missing from the one above - MT12 ;)Jonathan wrote:This is where you've seen it:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225
though specifically here:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/5832/perpet2.htm
That design alone doesn't work, I have no idea how the tinkerer's seems to despite it.
Trev.
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Jim if it helps you I'll email you the letters Judd had sent to me on his encounter with "the tinkerer". As a small piece of the lack of continuity from "the tinkerer", he has told people that he had been working on his machine for over ten years and it cost over 5,000.00 to make it and he's had it built for over a year now. He recently told someone on this board that he built his first working prototype over 20 years ago. As well you state you can build it for about 150.00. That should tell you something right there. I have other pieces of lack of continuity evidence if anyone wants. Of course you have to make up your own mind.
Edit;
>Others were digital camera short video clips, very crisp when still but blurred when turning.
But you said you only saw one complete revolution of the wheel turning. Is what you saw from start up or a piece of footage taken while the wheel was running? Don't the alarms go off just by asking why didn't he just send one whole piece of footage?
Reg.
Mike
Edit;
>Others were digital camera short video clips, very crisp when still but blurred when turning.
But you said you only saw one complete revolution of the wheel turning. Is what you saw from start up or a piece of footage taken while the wheel was running? Don't the alarms go off just by asking why didn't he just send one whole piece of footage?
Reg.
Mike
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
My personal opinion, having ACTUALLY spoken with 'the tinkerer' at length and having seen the pictures and video footage (rather than only dealing with second-hand information) is that this fellow is not a fraudster.
A common mousetrap could be made for less than a dollar, if you already have the design - bet it cost more than that to make the first one. 20 years ago is 'over 10 years'. No discontinuities there.
I think it is a mistake to condemn someone based on circumstantial evidence and second-hand heresay.
Certainly the evidence suggests that 'the tinkerer' has spent a great deal of time exploring his design and actually building models. Whether or not these models work as claimed is obviously yet to be determined, they may or they may not.
Personally, I can't see how he is getting the results he claims, I've experimented with similar designs in the past with no success, but perhaps I'm missing some aspect in this specific design? As Jim has said, the design doesn't keel, which is a good start at least and it is very simple. Unfortunately there's really only one sure-fire way to find out if the claims are warrented - build it!
Either way, I don't think this guy is a fraud. He may be wrong but I doubt he's a fraud. Frauds don't usually divulge their design until they get what they want - if ever.
I think 'the tinkerer' should jump in here and explain it himself and accept the support of those who might help him get his design resolved.
A common mousetrap could be made for less than a dollar, if you already have the design - bet it cost more than that to make the first one. 20 years ago is 'over 10 years'. No discontinuities there.
I think it is a mistake to condemn someone based on circumstantial evidence and second-hand heresay.
Certainly the evidence suggests that 'the tinkerer' has spent a great deal of time exploring his design and actually building models. Whether or not these models work as claimed is obviously yet to be determined, they may or they may not.
Personally, I can't see how he is getting the results he claims, I've experimented with similar designs in the past with no success, but perhaps I'm missing some aspect in this specific design? As Jim has said, the design doesn't keel, which is a good start at least and it is very simple. Unfortunately there's really only one sure-fire way to find out if the claims are warrented - build it!
Either way, I don't think this guy is a fraud. He may be wrong but I doubt he's a fraud. Frauds don't usually divulge their design until they get what they want - if ever.
I think 'the tinkerer' should jump in here and explain it himself and accept the support of those who might help him get his design resolved.
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Why all the cloak & dagger about a name Mike & Co, since on this board it's probably an alias anyway ?
IMHO Visualising Anothers Name Dosen't Usually Give Everyone Gall Stones !?
Build it Jim ! The cost is not great & there just may be a pleasant supprise in store for you. At worst you may waste a little time & money & your faith in this chap will be somewhat dented, however your already substantial analytical skills may well be improved from the experience.
regards -fletcher
IMHO Visualising Anothers Name Dosen't Usually Give Everyone Gall Stones !?
Build it Jim ! The cost is not great & there just may be a pleasant supprise in store for you. At worst you may waste a little time & money & your faith in this chap will be somewhat dented, however your already substantial analytical skills may well be improved from the experience.
regards -fletcher
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
True, it is silly and I've never been asked by anyone to keep the identity a secret. The 'tinkerer' is Darrell Vandusen aka VANDUGEGS on this board.Why all the cloak & dagger about a name...
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epistemologicide
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
bill
because a notary public has to sign my non disclosers for other countries. if the person in question is in australia then perhaps it might be different.
but not if they are in another country. (from australia)
because a notary public has to sign my non disclosers for other countries. if the person in question is in australia then perhaps it might be different.
but not if they are in another country. (from australia)
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Hi epistemologicide,
Every non-disclosure I've signed over the years, bar one, has been with someone in another country. Not once have I ever been requested to provide anyone's signiture on the agreement accept my own - none were notarised.
Does that mean that all my agreements are null and void :)
Every non-disclosure I've signed over the years, bar one, has been with someone in another country. Not once have I ever been requested to provide anyone's signiture on the agreement accept my own - none were notarised.
Does that mean that all my agreements are null and void :)
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epistemologicide
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- Location: australia
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
hi bill
i asked about this already.
they said that a notary public hAS to sign an agreement if the person is in another country, a justice of the peace can do it, thats what i got told from legal aid, lawyers, and even the court system.
notary publics are the real deal as far as i know. they give you a stamp and look over the thing you want signed, and even ask for your passpoert and drivers..every time i went into see the person he always joked ith me
have you re invented the wheel yet? where is my perpetual motion device lol,
perhaps tha means that all your infomation is not secret any more :D
(that was a joke)
i asked about this already.
they said that a notary public hAS to sign an agreement if the person is in another country, a justice of the peace can do it, thats what i got told from legal aid, lawyers, and even the court system.
notary publics are the real deal as far as i know. they give you a stamp and look over the thing you want signed, and even ask for your passpoert and drivers..every time i went into see the person he always joked ith me
have you re invented the wheel yet? where is my perpetual motion device lol,
perhaps tha means that all your infomation is not secret any more :D
(that was a joke)
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
For what it's worth, I have built a device based on this principle before and came to the conclusion that it cannot work.
Go ahead Jim, prove me wrong. Please! :-)
Go ahead Jim, prove me wrong. Please! :-)
re: Tinkerer say wheel works.
Bill, your assuming;
>My personal opinion, having ACTUALLY spoken with 'the tinkerer' at length and having seen the pictures and video footage (rather than only dealing with second-hand information)
I also have communicated with him, but to only a small degree. I have seen letter's he sent to some people though and in one of them he gives special information that he then later asked for a NDA to show. So I know how the wheel operates to a degree.
Also, why would you allow someone to invest their time and dollar towards your cause, and then turn your back on them for no good reason (other than, I can't show you the machine because I've taken it apart ((oldest con in the book)) and then finally, I think your a government spy etc.) once they saw you in person?
>A common mousetrap could be made for less than a dollar, if you already have the design - bet it cost more than that to make the first one. 20 years ago is 'over 10 years'. No discontinuities there.
Oh come on fellow-read. 20 years is 20 years not 10. I also said D. stated his wheel was just over 1 year at being built, and later on it was 20 to someone else.
>I think it is a mistake to condemn someone based on circumstantial evidence and second-hand heresay.
Yada yada yada, I have my opinion, Jim was asking for advice, I am giving it based on what I know and feel to be true.
>Certainly the evidence suggests that 'the tinkerer' has spent a great deal of time exploring his design and actually building models.
So have I, so have others. I bet I've spent more time and money than anyone else here on working models and you don't see me dangling fishing lines in peoples faces. Serious inventors don't do that kind of thing.
>Either way, I don't think this guy is a fraud. He may be wrong but I doubt he's a fraud. Frauds don't usually divulge their design until they get what they want - if ever.
You really need to apply some math to thiis statement because it does not make any sense. If he really divulged anything of merit then you, Jim, and anyone else INCLUDING the mechanical engineer he showed it to would have no doubts about how it worked, or the fact that it did work. So what is it then? Did he show the machine as Jim said or was it just shadowy footage?
Hey, I'm curious also as to his motive. If he is a fraud there are many types, not just those out for money. There are those who just like playing with people.
Edit, if he's not a fraud as in, trying to scam someone then I ask, how could he just be mistaken? I'd like to know why he asked for money in the area of about $5000.00 to make another model if Jim says it can be made much cheaper. Don't tell me he wouldn't know how to make a cheaper model, he's a welder and would have knowledge of materials. I'd like to know why he asked for help, then completely turned his back when said person willing to help met him in person. I'd like to know why people he knows aren't jumping on this and helping him. Surely the prospect of millions of dollars is incentive. I'd like to know why he's even asking for help on these boards when if he had anything that really worked, the world would be beating a path to his door, and his material success would be guranteed to matter what path he chose.
Reg.
Mike
>My personal opinion, having ACTUALLY spoken with 'the tinkerer' at length and having seen the pictures and video footage (rather than only dealing with second-hand information)
I also have communicated with him, but to only a small degree. I have seen letter's he sent to some people though and in one of them he gives special information that he then later asked for a NDA to show. So I know how the wheel operates to a degree.
Also, why would you allow someone to invest their time and dollar towards your cause, and then turn your back on them for no good reason (other than, I can't show you the machine because I've taken it apart ((oldest con in the book)) and then finally, I think your a government spy etc.) once they saw you in person?
>A common mousetrap could be made for less than a dollar, if you already have the design - bet it cost more than that to make the first one. 20 years ago is 'over 10 years'. No discontinuities there.
Oh come on fellow-read. 20 years is 20 years not 10. I also said D. stated his wheel was just over 1 year at being built, and later on it was 20 to someone else.
>I think it is a mistake to condemn someone based on circumstantial evidence and second-hand heresay.
Yada yada yada, I have my opinion, Jim was asking for advice, I am giving it based on what I know and feel to be true.
>Certainly the evidence suggests that 'the tinkerer' has spent a great deal of time exploring his design and actually building models.
So have I, so have others. I bet I've spent more time and money than anyone else here on working models and you don't see me dangling fishing lines in peoples faces. Serious inventors don't do that kind of thing.
>Either way, I don't think this guy is a fraud. He may be wrong but I doubt he's a fraud. Frauds don't usually divulge their design until they get what they want - if ever.
You really need to apply some math to thiis statement because it does not make any sense. If he really divulged anything of merit then you, Jim, and anyone else INCLUDING the mechanical engineer he showed it to would have no doubts about how it worked, or the fact that it did work. So what is it then? Did he show the machine as Jim said or was it just shadowy footage?
Hey, I'm curious also as to his motive. If he is a fraud there are many types, not just those out for money. There are those who just like playing with people.
Edit, if he's not a fraud as in, trying to scam someone then I ask, how could he just be mistaken? I'd like to know why he asked for money in the area of about $5000.00 to make another model if Jim says it can be made much cheaper. Don't tell me he wouldn't know how to make a cheaper model, he's a welder and would have knowledge of materials. I'd like to know why he asked for help, then completely turned his back when said person willing to help met him in person. I'd like to know why people he knows aren't jumping on this and helping him. Surely the prospect of millions of dollars is incentive. I'd like to know why he's even asking for help on these boards when if he had anything that really worked, the world would be beating a path to his door, and his material success would be guranteed to matter what path he chose.
Reg.
Mike