Did Bessler discover the "Ekman Spiral"...before Ekman?

[bluedanube]

I disagree bluedanube - the red "ihres Vorticis Verticalis" also refers to the weights

Stewart, you might be right or not.

I understand the sentence in question "an die Welle oder Axin ihres Vorticis Verticalis applicirte Lasten"
as the mentioned axle and the external applied load to it for sure belongs to the wheel, I guess also the Vorticis Verticalis is meant of the wheel.

EDIT: maybe we speak of the same, i mean it's not the Vorticis Verticalis of 1 weight, but all the weights - which in fact build the wheel or lookalike.

bluedanube

[ruggerodk]

I partly agree with Stewart - I believe the red "ihres Vorticis Verticalis" refers to the WAY by which the weight's load is applied to the wheel.

Just to point out more clearly that, judging by previous comments, you seem to be taking "Vorticis Verticalis" to mean a vertical axle/axis when I think it actually means that the axle/axis is horizontal and the weights are rotating vertically around it (basically a description of the whole machine/wheel as we see it oriented in the images).

I disagree: If you google "Vortices Verticalis" the findings are all showing a vertical axle/axis. To my knowledge it's a specific science term that describe fx a TORNADO...that is, a circular / spiral movement around (and up-down) a vertical axis.

How can it be otherwise? We can't just go changing the scienctific definition of the term to fit our image....then suddenly noone would know what they are talking about...?
"Is it defined by axle-direction or orbit-plane?"

regards
ruggero ;-)

[bluedanube]

rudderodk, Stewart, changed my mind, I agree, "ihres" relates to the wheights.
They move in a way, that external load, applied to their axle or axis of the Vorticis Verticalis, is driven.

... and at the same time in their admirably quick flight, according to the proportion both of their own and of their housing's size,
must move with and drive other loads applied outside at the axle or axis of their vertical vortex.

bluedanube

[ruggerodk]

bluedanube wrote:

They move in a way, that external load, applied to their axle or axis of the Vorticis Verticalis, is driven.

It pleases me to see that you have included "to" in your translation - that is absolutely a keyword, because it gives us a clue to what this mechanism do with the forces involved.

I have also highlighted the word "of" because I believe it is of most importance to the correct understanding of the sentence.

In my opinion it should have the meaning "by". Let me explain:

By the Vortices Verticalis movement of the weight, external load (or force) is applied to the shaft or axle, and this will drive the wheel.

This could mean that the Vortices Verticalis movement is what makes the whole thing work...!

ruggero ;-)

[Stewart]

Hi Ruggero

I disagree: If you google "Vortices Verticalis" the findings are all showing a vertical axle/axis. To my knowledge it's a specific science term that describe fx a TORNADO...that is, a circular / spiral movement around (and up-down) a vertical axis.

If you google "Vorticis Verticalis" (with the quotes) you get nothing but references to the words in DT.

In Latin 'Vorticis' is the genitive case of the word 'Vortex'. The English meanings of 'Vortex' are: whirlpool, eddy, vortex. (It can also mean: crown of the head; peak, top, summit; the pole; - but these aren't the meanings intended here). Think of a whirlpool in a river - its axis (or vortex line) is vertical but the water is rotating on a horizontal plane. That's the normal behaviour for a whirlpool/vortex, and a vertical vortex is therefore one where the axis (or vortex line) is now horizontal but the particles in the vortex are now rotating on a vertical plane. Bessler's wheel and its weights therein are a vertical vortex.

We can't just go changing the scienctific definition of the term to fit our image....then suddenly noone would know what they are talking about...?

Indeed, but who's doing that? Certainly not me.

By the Vortices Verticalis movement of the weight, external load (or force) is applied to the shaft or axle, and this will drive the wheel.

Why are you changing the sentence around when it made perfect sense the way Bessler wrote it? The paragraph that this text comes from is a description of how Bessler's wheel is turned by its overbalancing weights which, due to whatever arrangement of the structure that houses them (the wheel), constantly seek their point of rest but never reach it, and in doing so are able to also move other loads via the axle of that housing (the wheel). The weights (and therefore of course whole wheel) are rotating vertically about a horizontal axis.

I can talk you through the whole paragraph/page if you like but some other time as it's time for me to go to bed...

All the best
Stewart

[ruggerodk]

Hi Stewart
I do see your point of argument.
But I still disagree with you.

First of all, nothing that Bessler wrote made "perfect sense"....otherwise we wouldn't have a discussion-club about clues, hints, interpretation, what-did-he-mean... etc.
And that's why I made a notice on the different translation of the same text...especially highlightning the use and meaning of the german word "an", which are translated both as "of" and "to" and furthermore is beeing related to quite different part of the mechanism and ways of usage.

Secondly, (I maybe wrong on that) but I hear you say, that a wheel with a horizontal axis is defined as a "Verical Vortex" because it has a vertical plane of rotation.

Well, I'm not the only one who would disagree on that definition.

When Victor Schauberger (The Water Wizard) talked about "longitudinal Water Vortex", he shows us a horizontal axis and a vertical plane of rotation....similar to the wheel.
When he shows us a Verical Water Vortex....well, it has a vertical axis and a horizontal plane of rotation.

A tornado is described the same way.
A water vortex is described the same way.

If one should follow your argumentation (defining a vortex by the plane of rotation) the vortex of a tornado wouldn't be associated with "vertical", nor would the water vortex.
Why? Because the particles is moving in the horizontal plane.

Then what on earth would be the reason to ever call it a "vertical vortex"? You see...it doesn't make sense.

One could surely argue, that the streching out direction (up-down or sideways) of a vortex may be the reason to define it as either horizontal or vertical. But that gives the same result.

It could turn out to be a pointless argumentation – much similar to the "Reflect Tool" of Adobe Photoshop (Plane) and Adobe Illustrator (Axis). I suggest that everyone take a stand of what they prefere to believe.

My mind is clear: I stick to The Water Wizard....he surely knew what he was talking about.

A Vortex is defined by the direction of the axis, Not the plane of rotation.

best regards
ruggero ;-)

[path_finder]

What was exactly the axis of the weights in the Bessler wheel: horizontal, radial or orthogonal?

Few months ago I asked this pertinent question, unfortunately without any definitive answer.
see this URL: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... 2238c3e2b7

I give here again the corresponding drawing for a better understanding of this important question.
The horizontal mode is in dark blue (99% of the common designs)
The orthogonal mode is in red.
The radial mode is not shown.
Note: if the red weights are half filled and rotating, it is similar with the Tesla engine...

[bluedanube]

By the Vortices Verticalis movement of the weight, external load (or force) is applied to the shaft or axle, and this will drive the wheel.

rudderodk, I don't read / see, that it is about the movement and how the weights apply their driving force to the shaft.


"noch andere von außen an die Welle oder Axin ihres Vorticis Verticalis applicirte Lasten"

"die Welle" is singular, and so I guess is "Axin ihres Vorticis Verticalis".
"noch andere von außen ... applicirte Lasten" means, other than the weights load, additional external load is applied and driven.

In 2D spoken, it describes a single common rotation point, all the weights move around, and the external load is applied to this single point, or in 3D spoken shaft/rotation axle. (Sorry if I use wrong english terms)

If the rotation is like the hands of a watch on the wall, or like a tornado, I don't know. They drawings of all Bessler wheels and the documented thiness of the wheels, let me assume the weights do as the first.

bluedanube

[ruggerodk]

I hear what you say, bluedanube. Thanks for your comment. But it still doesn't explain what item is related to the use of "Vertical Vortex"....?

REMEMBER...Bessler says several times: "There is more to this drawing than meet the eye".

What we see in a 2D drawing that looks like something mounted diagonal in a circle, is actually (in other drawings) mounted parallel to the wheels axle.

A scissor-jack that is drawn as if it have the rods going from wheel's axle to the rim...could in real life be mounted laying flat (longitudinal) on the perimeter between the two rims.

The same goes for the orientation of the weights.

regards
ruggero ;-)

[bluedanube]

I ask myself if the word "Welle" (shaft) was to specific to Bessler, as in common sense, it describes a "perfect round stick" in the center of a wheel. He might thought, it does not describe well what he used, either because it was not a wheel but just appeared so (he himself stated that), or because the shaft was not designed as an ordinary shaft. (maybe the AP wheel with 3 parts, just my speculation .. )

So he throw in the alternativ expression "axin of Vertical Vorticis" for "die Welle".
Notice that he uses "oder" in "die Welle oder Axin ihres Vorticis Vertivalis"

bluedanube

[ruggerodk]

yes, I noticed that "oder" is used, bluedanube.
I agree with you on the shaft: It could be a crankshaft as we know them from an ordinary cumbustion engine or from a kids 3-wheeled bicycle.

And still: "Vertical Vortex" has nothing to do with the wheels axle or the wheels plane of rotation.

It's the "tornado" movement of a mechanism or structure by which (still) other loads or force from outside is applied to the wheel's axle.

remember, that gravity IS indeed an outside force too.

ruggero ;-)

[DrWhat]

The Vortex idea is a good one relating to Bessler's wheel. I like the idea of accumulating energy like a tornado accumulating energy from two pressure differentials and rolling up that energy in a sense.

I was intrigued by MT55. It is as though gravity is grabbed multiple times by the pendulums. Each swing accumulating gravity (in a sense) repeatedly rather than just once.

My latest view (which changes constantly) is just that, there has to be a way to accumulate gravitational forces by swinging and Bessler even says this: "weights gained force by their own swinging or movement"

[bluedanube]

And still: "Vertical Vortex" has nothing to do with the wheels axle or the wheels plane of rotation.

I do think it has to do. That is the reason why I highlighted the "oder".
It tells that both terms, "die Welle" and "Axin ihres Vorticis Verticalis", describe the same or similar thing, the single common rotation point of the weights. As it is written, the external load is applied to that point and driven, and we know from the wheels drawings the external load is applied to the wheels rotation point/shaft, so the 2 must be the same.

Written in 2 sentences, we get
"an die Welle applicirte Lasten" + "oder" +
"an die Axin ihres Vorticis Verticalis applicirte Lasten".

From the front view drawings of Bessler wheels, we know that the load was applied to a horizontal shaft in the direction of z axis,
if we name the left-right direction as x axis, and the up-down direction y axis.

And not to forget, the sentence tells us, the load is applied to the "axin ihres Vorticis Verticalis" and not to
"vorticis verticalis". The "axin" stands naturally in an 90 degree right anlge to wheights rotation movement plane.


My conclusion, I think tornado movement is a very interesting phenomen and may not be excluded from possible principles for PMs,
but I don't read the sentence this way, it gives a clue to such a movement.

At last follows an impressive foto from the english Wikipedia website, vertical rotation - horizontal axle.

bluedanube

[ruggerodk]

Bluedanube:

I'm not perfect to german language (though had it in high school for 3 years)...

I will repeat myself again, and I can't say it more clearly:

It does not make any sense at all, to define a "Vertical Vortex" by the plane of rotation...!!!

A tornado or eddy or a waterwhirl are NOT catagorized as a Vertical Vortex because of the plane of rotation, now are they?

The only way to apply load to the wheel's axle by a vertical vortex is to have the axis of the vertical vortex 'standing' 90° on the wheel's axle.

ruggero ;-)

[Ed]

I believe the idea is that a tornado, etc. IS a vortex and that a vertical vortex is one turned 90 degrees.