The more things change

[winkle]

in this conner is Scott the referee and in the other conner it's tag team Bill and Ed

hum

i guess that with the referee in one conner

this must be a blood and guts match

[Ed]

Wow, interesting debate tactics Bill and Ed.

This summer was one of the coolest on record. Is that probably because of man made CO2 or the sun?

http://www.examiner.com/x-219-Denver-We ... s-recorded

Try thinking for a moment before you regurgitate your response.

I did think first (or as much as I could late at night while typing on my iPhone in bed ;-) and wasn't calling you a pervert Scott. I was just trying to make a point and get you to respond (since ducking lately) and I'm glad you decided to add something.

In case people didn't get what I was saying, I was relating the debate to auto erotic asphyxiation. One side seems to derive pleasure in calling the whole debate a hoax, and simplifying everything down to one person exhaling.

I never liked the term 'global warming' and think Al Gore did more harm than good overusing it. But this is a more complex issue than both sides just citing a thermometer in between political quips.

Global Dimming

Why would particles in the atmosphere cause global dimming?

It's very simple - they reflect sunlight back into space. This fact has been well-known for many decades (it is why volcanoes, which can throw vast numbers of sulphate particles into the upper atmosphere, can have a strong temporary cooling effect on the Earth).

If the 9/11 contrail evidence suggests warmer nights due to the air travel, isn't that global warming rather than dimming?

The 9/11 study showed that removing contrails resulted in a large increase in the daily temperature range - in other words warmer days and cooler nights. The study does not really provide a clear-cut answer to the question of whether the overall effect of the contrails is a net warming or a net cooling averaged over the whole 24 hours. This question is controversial. But what seems clear is that contrails contribute to a reduction in the amount of daytime solar radiation reaching the surface, and that this has significant effects on temperature.

And removing contrails was just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. There is much more pollution in the atmosphere due to more than just planes. And while we are at it, the debate always goes on about CO2 and how it's natural and harmless (even though too much oxygen or water can kill a person), it never even touches on CO.

Carbon dioxide CO2 and carbon monoxide CO are sometimes confused. They are quite different in their effects on humans.

Carbon dioxide CO2 is present in the atmosphere today at 385 parts per million (by volume) or 0.039 percent. 50 years ago it was 280 parts per million. The increase is caused by people burning things, especially fuels - coal, oil, and natural gas, especially coal. Burning wood also puts CO2 in the atmosphere.

Almost all life is dependent on plants getting CO2 from the atmosphere. That's where the carbon in wood and leaves comes from.

Human and animals breathe in air, take some of the oxygen from it (air is 20 percent oxygen), and breathe out a mixture that includes CO2 obtained by combining part of ones food with oxygen.

Air can be about 5 percent CO2, from a stuffy room, before people become uncomfortable. According to the Wikipedia article, amounts above 800 ppm are considered unhealthy, amounts above 5,000 ppm are considered very unhealthy, and those above about 50,000 ppm are considered dangerous to animal life.

Carbon monoxide CO, unlike CO2, is a bad poison. CO is produced by incomplete combustion, i.e. when there isn't enough oxygen to make CO2, you get CO.

Carbon monoxide binds very strongly to the iron in the hemoglobin in the blood. Once carbon monoxide attaches, it is very difficult to release. So if you breath in carbon monoxide, it sticks to your hemoglobin and takes up all of the oxygen binding sites Your blood loses all of its ability to transport oxygen, and you suffocate.

Because carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin so strongly, you can be poisoned by carbon monoxide even at very low concentrations if you are exposed for a long period of time. Concentrations as low as 20 or 30 parts per million (PPM) can be harmful if you are exposed for several hours. Exposure at 2,000 PPM for one hour will cause unconsciousness.

Many common devices produce carbon monoxide, including cars, gas appliances, wood stoves and cigarettes, especially if used in a confined space.

The Earth's atmosphere, as are it's resources, is finite even if it seems vast. Our population in 1850 was just over 1 billion. Now it's almost 7 billion. In less that 200 year it went up 6 billion, and up another 2 billion by 2040.

Now think of all the discarded candy wrappers, cigarette butts, water bottles, oil film in lakes from jet skis, cow farts from meat eaters, and general exhaling from that amount of individuals. There are about 500 cars for every 1000 people in the US alone.

It adds up!

[Jim Williams]

me again 40 yeses 57 nos

risdon10/7/2009 7:16:31 PM
The largest greenhouse gas is water vapor of which we have no control. It is only human vanity that we believe anything we do will have a more than negligible effect in reducing the warming that is occuring.

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