MT 24 and 25

[bluesgtr44]

I think you are dead on, Fletch. I think that was the reason he did AP in prose, it allowed him to be flambouyant with his vocabulary. I look at the "toy page" and the hammer guys....if one could manage a foil arrangement on something like that and could control the swing...it might provide a bit of a directional assist given the right speed. But, then again....


Steve

[daxwc]

One of the main clues that started me to 4 degrees, is that is the angle of the drain pipe in the Archimedes water screw picture. It just seems so odd that the drain pipe is even there that it has to be a clue. Why 4 degrees...why not make it a even 5 or 10... why out the top first section of the window? It is like he is saying to drain the extra energy off at 4 degrees to something.

In the water screw picture, at the outlet of the screw it pours in to a trough that is of course 4 degrees (actually two 2 degrees... another clue that maybe ties into the Apologia wheel). Absolutely no reason for the chute to be drawn like that. Also the gap between the trough and the screw is 4 degrees. Why have a trough at all draining back to the tub. Why not just make the tub bigger?

Yep,it is thoughts like these kept me out of the really good universities ;)))

[Stewart]

It just seems so odd that the drain pipe is even there that it has to be a clue.

Why? It makes perfect sense to me. The wheel is in an upstairs room of the castle and I'd be surprised if they had running water upstairs. If Bessler was going to demonstrate a water screw he would need to get the water up into the trough somehow. Why not use the wheel - hence the bucket. Once the trough was full it would be impossible to move as it would be too heavy. Because the wheel is upstairs, the quickest and easiest way to empty the trough would be to drain it way through a pipe back down and outside. Now the trough could easily be moved out of the way, and the waterscrew moved also, so that the wheel could be translocated to the other set of supports (note: this is just my speculation, but I think it makes sense).

Why have a trough at all draining back to the tub. Why not just make the tub bigger?

Once again - why have a bigger trough than is necessary? There was probably limited room, and the bigger the trough the more difficult it would be to move it around. You'd also need to fill it with more water before the level was high enough for the screw to pick up.

I'm not saying that there isn't any hidden geometry etc. in any of the images - there may well be - but it seems to me that everything shown in the images has an explainable and perfectly logical function. Don't forget many people saw the Merseburg & Kassel wheel set-ups and it would look highly suspicious if anything shown in the images was not seen at the demonstrations.

Stewart

[daxwc]

Very true Stewart... on the other hand Bessler wouldn't want it to look too out of place. Remember he did talk about hiding things right in front of their eyes, but to do this, things would have a function or they stand out. If I was drawing the picture I wouldn't have gone to the trouble to show you where I drain the tub at and which part of the window I went through. In fact the demonstration would have been better if he turned the trough and let it pump itself out the window after he was done.

It is not like the drain and window is drawn in proportion to the rest of the drawing. Why is the discharge trough not level... the trough itself is 4 degrees and not drawn to proportion neither.

There is lots more 4 degree stuff, enough to pick my ears up. Bessler did say the movement was small. I was thinking along the lines that the last 4 degrees is the hardest to get over in wheel. You figure out how to get from 11:56 to noon and you are probably doing some kind of victory dance.

[Stewart]

Remember he did talk about hiding things right in front of their eyes,

Could you please just remind me where he says this? Thanks.

If I was drawing the picture I wouldn't have gone to the trouble to show you where I drain the tub at and which part of the window I went through.

I have to agree it does seem odd to show such detail. Maybe people at the demonstrations noticed the funnel and the hole in the floor and kept asking him about it so he decided to show it on the drawing. Or, maybe he is hinting at a repeating cycle - up in the bucket (into the mouth), through the machine (digestion), and out through the window (waste) - then the cycle repeats. "The thing also, (from which one feeds) goes through intestine and marrow and bones; &c." - JB, AP [i.e. it goes right through].
Who knows? "I could for many an hour speculate, but still not the motion perpetuate." - SH, IT ;-)

Anyway, keep thinking - I certainly don't want to put you off as it's great to see someone observing the details. I seem to remember pointing out a few years ago that each wheel image shows something passing through a window and always through the top left pane. I think it was met with a general, "Ah, yes. And?"! We could be over thinking these details, but it's probably always worth pointing them out as you just never know - one day a big light bulb might go on for someone.
"Because I must not speak German here, nor open all window-shutters;" - JB, AP.
My advice to anyone looking for any hidden clues in the images would be to look at areas which could be shown a certain way without raising suspicion in those that had been to see the wheel demonstrations.

Bill & Fletcher are two of the most observant members of the forum - I wonder if they can spot an answer or even a sucky code ;-)

Also, John pointed out to me a pretty convincing piece of hidden geometry in one of the images when I visited him once. I'll leave it to him to reveal it obviously, but you might have to wait for his book.

Stewart

[daxwc]

Yes Stewart it is highly speculative on my part. I thought I had broken a code on a drawing with my last wheel. Since the wheel does not run its says loads about my code breaking abilities. I still believe the code is there but I am applying it wrong.

I also found a million to one geometric image... I was thinking about giving it to John...but... Damn I feel like Gollum.

[daxwc]

I always thought the pillar hole in Merseburg wheel too had to be a clue. If you draw a line from centre it is at 4 degrees. Obvious it is there to convey something as the pillar is even numbered number 4 in his list. Why number it number four, if I was drawning it it would be number 3... why did the wheel circumference and thickness get different numbers as they are the same wheel.

A lot of timing is done at 4 degrees in the MT's... examples, 133 MT center of tock is four degrees, MT 134 center of tock is 4 degrees, MT 85 degree offset to wheel axles is 4 degrees, MT 136 angle of rachet movement is 4 degrees, MT 121 crank offsets are 4 degrees.

MT's 91, 92, 100, 99 troughs are 4 degrees at discharge. Most bellows are 4 degree halfs. Many levers are at 4 degrees or their weight offset at 4 degrees.

Another special one is MT 122 where the swing offset from center is 4 degrees

[daxwc]

MT 122 where the swing offset from center is 4 degrees. Can all these just be random odds?

[DrWhat]

These are some relatively recent thoughts regarding the Bessler mechanism.

My view is that the mechanism needs to be very dynamic.

Lets look at MT 24 and the position of the weights each connected by an arm.

Bessler gives this device praise but not for obvious reasons.

[DrWhat]

Now these movements are controlled and maintain balance in a wheel. In the configuration shown.

But lets create a more dynamic system with the cp and cf forces into play and the inertia of each weighted bar. Below is just a crude example.

What we have is a free arm that spins crazily along a path. The path needs to be set in such a way that forces are optimised.

I have only shown one for simplicity.

This arm with weights on each end zips around the paths.

It is important to note that the arm can overlap the central perimeter (ie go "over" it.

[DrWhat]

Now to increase the dynamics there is a spring between the weights.

[DrWhat]

I am presenting this to get others thinking along different lines.

Bessler says the weights retain free movement. You can't get much freer than this. And they act in pairs etc etc.

Just have a think of where to progress with this idea.

The movability of the arms (ie how wide or narrow the expansion is) is very important as are all the other measurements and angles.

[Lightwave]

i like that im gona start playing with MT drawings in paint shop