Apologia Poetica Translation

[Jonathan]

I've been thinking of it differently, that 'reward' is used in a somewhat sarcastic sense, and that it is really more of a punishment. Of course that never made much sense to me, because you don't hit a dog on the paws to punish. On the other hand, my dog is very sensitive about his feet being touched, but I'm not sure if that is how dogs are or if it's just him.

[Stewart]

Hi John

You said:
"[kreuchet] means "crouching" according to Mike Senior. "

Can you just double check that with him please, as I can't quite work out how he came to that conclusion? I think it might be that the "eu" is replaced with "ie" to give kriechen which I translate as crawl/creep/cringe/crouch/grovel. If it is crouch then the first line still makes sense:

The dog also crouches in the huts/kennels

but the second then doesn't:

however only as far as the chain will reach.

...so it would make more sense is the word was crawl or creeps:
The dog also crawls from the huts/kennels, however only as far as the chain will reach.

For "die dürren Poppen" I can't work out how Mike came up with stiff fops so please ask him. I got "skinny dolls", but as Rainer said if you drop a "p", you get "Popen" which gives you "skinny/slim priests". One thought on this is that there is a fishing implement called a priest that is used for killing fish by bashing them on the head. Click here to see a photo. I'm not sure whether they were called the same thing in Germany in Bessler's time though.

You said:
"Rereading my post I think it seems a bit harsh and I didn't mean it to, because as Jonathan says, we need different interpretations of the original text and Stewart, your work is, as I said, applauded - don't stop."

Don't worry I didn't read too much into your comment - I agree that the translations are very similar to Mike's original, but I think there are some parts of his translation of this section that need refining. We need to get this as accurate as possible otherwise it is useless as a means to confirm a wheel design.

You said:
"While we're on the subject of this passage, I've always been slightly puzzled by the fact that the stiff fops, or whatever they are, reward the dog with pats on his paws. Why his paws? "

I don't think the dog is being rewarded but disciplined by being hit on the paws. There is no mention of the word "reward" but "Dafür" means "for it"/"for this" or "therefore", and "kloppen" can be taken as "klopfen" and translates as rap/tap/knock/beat, so I think the dog crawled through the rime/hoop and for this it is being rapped on the paws:

Dafür ihn bald die dürren Poppen
Auch ziemlich auf die Pfoten kloppen; x.

Your're right it does sound like Bessler is describing a mechanical action very precisely. The fact that he mentions "paws" makes me think that there must be a smaller part attached to the "dog" that is being hit rather than the whole "dog".

All the best
Stewart

[Jonathan]

As for Poppen-Popen-priest, I had a thought. It seems weird to call a "fish-smacking-stick" a "priest", but looking at the link Stewart provided, it appears that all "priest" variants are essentially clubs. I suspect now that "die dürren Poppen" shoulds be roughly translated as "stiff religious fops" or some variant. And because of this, the dog's paws are hit with a club or mace. (It was very common for priests to carry maces of sorts, which are just fancy clubs. It was quick, efficient, reasonably clean, and you didn't have to learn to use it. The sceptor came about as a nonutilitarian mace held just for status).

[Tinhead]

I suspect now that "die dürren Poppen" shoulds be roughly translated as "stiff religious fops" or some variant.

I didn't explain it very well the 1st time. Let me try again. Jonathan, you come close with your "stiff religious fops".
I think Bessler was making fun of them. Those "fops" at that time were the ones which were the "rulekeepers". Tracking down people with heretic thougths or any other "new" ideas ... sometimes not only related to religion, also to science. Science witch hunt, you might say.

A "pat on the paws" .. thats what you do if you want to train a dog, or if you want to remind it "Hey, you are NOT allowed to do this .. I already told you, remember?"

So .. the dog is doing its own thing (crouching, whatever it might be) till the stiff fops catch up with it to put it back in place. "YOU CAN'T DO THAT"

I see it this way .. the "dog" is doing something that it temporary against/ignoring existing rules .. till the Poppes (time?) set everything right

I hope this makes more sense this time?

Cheers,
Rainer

[Michael]

> I see it this way .. the "dog" is doing something that it temporary against/ignoring existing rules .. till the Poppes (time?) set everything right

Could be. Or it could be that the fops are tyrants and the dog is miserable.

Reg.

Mike

[John Collins]

Spoke to Mike yesterday, and it seems I wasn't accurate 'Kreuchet' doesn't mean crouch only, but creep,crawl, cringe, sneak, fawn. Many English words derive from old German words (i.e. Tug= pull) and 'Kreutch' is linguistically similar to crouch, but also can be applied to a number of similar words.

The 'durren poppen' words have thrown up some interesting translations. Mike says 'durren' means dry or arrid. 'Poppen' he maintains means fops and when I asked him what he understood by the word 'fop' he said IHO 'Fop' referred to men who led idle lives and over-dressed and used exaggerated gestures but primarily had had expensive educations and hadn't made use of it, relying on others to do their thinking for them.

He agreed that Poppen seemed like dolls but he said the spelling was wrong and I did not pursue that comment. He said it could mean dry and stick-like or dried up fops.

He also said that he thinks Bessler was taking the opportunity to poke fun at the intelligensia who had mocked him previously.

My own research threw up something quite unexpected. Among others, I use the following on-line dictionary http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/ for some words and it gives 'durren' as dry but I was most amused to discover their translation of 'poppen', I leave it to you guys to discover for yourselves and it opens up an entirely knew line of thought.

[Jonathan]

John, where have you been?! That is exactly the surprising new line of thought I was talking about! Please carefully reread post #6468, and #'s 6470-6472 on pg 4 of this topic. Pay careful attention to the links in #6470 specifically.
"...stick-like or dried up fops": I also got this impression from Tinhead that they were like rulers, or govenors, and taking those words as pronouns, they do have a tendancy to be thin since their work is done for them. Taking them as nouns, it seems to descibe some sort of regulating mechanism that keeps the dog in step.
I understood Tinhead, I was just trying to draw a connection between what the dog may be hit with, and the words in the text. But that is highly speculative, since the hit may be nonliteral, refering to some action to manipulate or control the dog.

[John Collins]

Sorry guys - I missed that reference!

[Michael]

Edit; thought I'd take that out, but it is also curious how close we can be to terminology from nowadays as to the past. The more things change the more they stay the same, as the phrase goes. It's just kind of interesting that a pooch pounder is someone that sluffs off at work, and one of the meanings of the word in question is someone who is given to idoltry and lazyness.
Too bad this wasn't a comedy board, there's a lot of potential humour here.

(dry humper) No seriously, something creating a lot of friction? There was the sound of parts rubbing.
Question, are we back then to ovyuss's idea of a partial heat engine?

As for fops I think I remember it being in a black adder episode (but I'm not sure) where it was in regards to George, who would be a fop himslef in all meanings of the word.

Reg.

Mike

[Michael]

This is strange,

>He wags his tail well, creeps on the belly through the frost

Again potential heat difference. That along with puffing and weezing. Ovyuss you were also taken to the idea of bellows. Is it a coincidence, or do you know more of the interpretaion than you've mentioned in the past?

Sincerely,

Michael

[Stewart]

Hi John

Thanks for clearing up the "kreuchet" issue - I didn't think crouch made sense, but crawls/creeps/sneaks etc does.

"dürren" could be dry/arid but also scrawny/skinny.

Here are some definations of "fop":

A man who is preoccupied with and often vain about his clothes and manners; a dandy
[Middle English, fool probably akin to Middle English fob, trickster, cheat.]

n : a man who is much concerned with his dress and appearance

Fop\, n. [OE. foppe, fop, fool; cf. E. fob to cheat, G. foppen to make a fool of one, jeer, D. foppen.] One whose ambition it is to gain admiration by showy dress; a coxcomb; an inferior dandy.

It's interesting that the last one mentions the German word "foppen", which is quite similar to "poppen".

...was most amused to discover their translation of 'poppen', I leave it to you guys to discover for yourselves...

I still think this "alternative" meaning is doubtful as the "P" is capitalised - surely this means its a noun and not a verb?

Best Wishes
Stewart

[Stewart]

Here are some useful links...

This is a good German<->English dictionary I've been using with links to other good dictionaries if they fail to match a word:

http://www.dict.cc/

Also at that site they have a forum where you can post words for people to help with translation. I posted Schniebe-Kaulgen - didn't get a great deal of help with it but someone posted a good link to help with old German words:

http://germa63.uni-trier.de:8080/Projec ... id=GS15363

Rainer, as the site is in German, could you look up some of the words we've been discussing and see if it helps us at all please? It does look like Schniebe comes from Schnauben (snort/sniff/pant). I'm dying to find out what a Schniebe-Kaulgen is! Perhaps you could also check out "Poppen" too.

Stewart

[Stewart]

Man sieht ein Rad/ und auch kein Rad/
Weils Felgen und auch keine hat/
Laufft ohne in und außre Räder/
Zimbel-Gewicht/Wind und Uhr-Feder/x
Hier siehets halb/ dort siehets gantz/
Es prahlet wie ein Pfauen-Schwantz/ x.
Es lauff't zur Rechten und zur Lincken/
Man darff ihm nur mit Fingern wincken/
Es breitet sich die Läng' und Quer'/
Hier ist es voll/ dort ist es leer';
Ein Ding besteh't auß den drey Reichen/
Ihr habet hand-greiffliche Zeichen/
Ohn' Schwefel/Saltz/Mercurius
Auch bald ein Ding verfliessen muß. x.

I've already talked about most of this section before in this topic. I now think I know what this is describing. I don't think I got as far as posting about the last four lines.

Ein Ding besteh't auß den drey Reichen/
Ihr habet hand-greiffliche Zeichen/

Mike translated this as:
All things belong to one of the three kingdoms (animal, vegetable, matter)
and - you have the physical evidence in front of you.

(Note the part in brackets is just speculation as to what the three "kingdoms" might refer to and is not actually written.)

I translated this as:
A thing consists of the three realms/kingdoms,
You have clear signs

(hand-greiffliche -> handgreiflich = clear/palpable)

The key differences are that I think the "thing" is singular and that it is made up of all three realms/kingdoms and not just one of them. This also fits with my understanding of what the previous lines refer to. My current thinking is that the "thing" is a certain system in the wheel containing three main "parts". The second line is pretty much the same in both translations.

Ohn' Schwefel/Saltz/Mercurius
Auch bald ein Ding verfliessen muß. x.

Mike's translation:
Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will soon come to a standstill.

My attempt:
Without sulphur, salt, mercury
Also soon a thing must 'pass by'/'go by'/elapse/lapse

So these seem to be pretty much the same, although please have a go at translating "verfliessen" and see what you get. I also found a reference to it possibly meaning "melt", but I don't think this is probably the intended meaning here.

Next chunk:
Der Elementen Qualitäten
Auch jederm Dinge sind vonnöhten;
Saturnus/ Mars/ Jupiter fein
Zu jederm Kriege willig seyn. x.
Das Ding auch/ (wovon man sich nähret)
Durch Därm und Marck und Beine fähret; x.


Der Elementen Qualitäten
Auch jederm Dinge sind vonnöhten

Mike's translation:
the qualities of the elements are necessary to keep things going.

My attempt:
Also the elemental qualities of all things are necessary.

Having trouble with this, perhaps you could help. What does "jederm" mean - I get all/any/each/every for "jeder" - what does the "m" ending mean?

Saturnus/ Mars/ Jupiter fein
Zu jederm Kriege willig seyn. x.

Mike's translation:
Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are ready to join in any battle.

My attempt:
Saturn, Mars, Jupiter finely
are willing for any/all wars

Again not sure about "jederm".

Das Ding auch/ (wovon man sich nähret)
Durch Därm und Marck und Beine fähret; x.

Mike's translation:
Even the things we eat do not lose their elemental influence - for it spreads itself through every limb and sinuw of our bodies.

My attempt:
The thing also, (whatever one feeds oneself)
goes through intestines and core/pulp and legs.

I think "Durch Därm und Marck und Beine fähret" could mean "goes right through", so maybe:

Also, (whatever we eat) the thing goes right through us.

Next chunk:
Ein Krebs vorwerts und rücklings kriecht/
Und ist gesund (wohl zugericht.)
Die Polter-Geister frey spatziren
Zum öfftern durch verschloss'ne Thüren;x.

We've already talked about the crab/crayfish, so next is:

Die Polter-Geister frey spatziren
Zum öfftern durch verschloss'ne Thüren;x.

Mike's translation:
Poltergeists often wander freely through locked doors.

I agree with Mike's translation, assuming "spatziren" is "spazieren" which means to walk/stroll. "Verschloss" means locked, but I did also find that "verschlossene" means uncommunicatively. "Thüren" -> "Türen" -> "doors".


That's it for now - more soon.

Stewart

[Jonathan]

This is what I get, which may or may not mean anything:
“verfliessen”->“verfließen”->same as you got
“jederm”-> “jederm’”->“jedermann”->everyone/s
“verschloss’ne”->“verschloss”->close
“verschloss’ne”->“verschlossen”->closed
“verschloss’ne”->“verschlossene”->hermetic

[Oystein]

Hello, this is my thorough translation..
Some of the phrases is very much like Norwegian, and we still use them today ! I also have had some years of German language education, and have an OLD dictionary at home.

This is what I came to :
(Pretty literal translation)

---------------------------------------------------

Greed is the root to evil
An anvil get many hits.

A carter carts, a runner runs;
The seer sees, the buyers buyes;
The rain flows, the snow falls;
The socket shoots, the curve shoots up;
Here walk a big herd
Very much fat, decayed, thick horses;
The "punks" wants generally
to be on the doorstep, not with their teachers
The children play on the boxes
With louder heavy marbels;
Aerial jumpers and showfighters are
Fast and swiftly like the wind.

The clever cat quietly creep,
And catches fine fat mice.
The dog also from the hut creeps,
However, only so far the chain reaches.
The nice treasures and machines

If he knows how to behave very nice;
He waves his tail
Creeps on the belly through the dust / frost / snow.
Then he soon shakes dry
And as proper, the paws shakes.


One sees a wheel and also no wheel,
Because it has rims and also none.
Runs without inner and outher wheels,
Hanging weighs, wind and watch spring

Here seen half, there seen completely;
It shows off like a peacock's tail.

It runs to the rights and to the lefts;
One may wave to him only with fingers.
It spreads out the length and across;

Here it is full, there it is empty;
A thing exists of three empires;
Without sulphur, salt, Merkurius
Soon a thing must pass.

Of the elements qualities
Also to every thing are needed.
Saturn, Mars, Jupiter looks nice
In all wars they are willing.

The thing also (from what man feed itself)
Go through Bowel and “body and soul” ;

A crayfish forward and backwards creeps
And is healthy for you (properly prepared).
The Poltergeists freely walk
From time to time through closed doors.

Indeed silence, silence and a limit,
Passing this limit, the enemy becomes only clever;
The enemy as on me wants to drool,
Drool, I should get worked up,
Get worked up and on fresh action
The coat throw from the wheel.

However, this wish will fail to him;
I have prooved


Best
Oystein