Apologia Poetica Translation

[Michael]

>Taking them as nouns, it seems to descibe some sort of regulating mechanism that keeps the dog in step.

It is also quite possible it is the other way around. That the dog is what regulates the fops.

[Stewart]

Hi Oystein

Many thanks for your translation. It's almost identical to mine, which is encouraging, but you have come up with a few differences of interest as follows:

The "punks" wants generally
to be on the doorstep, not with their teachers
The children play on the boxes
With louder heavy marbels;

and..

Then he soon shakes dry
And as proper, the paws shakes.

Could you please explain (with any web links if possible) how you translated these passages and got these words: doorstep, teachers, boxes, marbels, shakes. Thanks.

All the best
Stewart

[Oystein]

Hello, ehh.. it could be a bit nasty to revert the whole process here, but I will try to some degree to show some reverted translation...
Saying that it is those two parts where I had to use my imagination also,
and think that he may have twisted the words for rime purpose...
So I may correct some lines soon :-)
Stayed up last night and did my first translation attempt...
http://translation2.paralink.com/
http://intertran.tranexp.com/Translate/

Example 1 :
Die Flegel wollen insgemein
Bei Dreschern, nicht bei DoktorÂ’n seinÂ’
Die Kinder spielen auf den Sãulchen
Mit lauter schweren Schniebekeulchen;

Flegel = Louts = "bad boy" or:
Hitting-stick or a small bump on the ground
insgemein = ordinary/as usual/generally
Dreschern = Thresher (see attachement)[/img]
Can`t remember where I found the other word..

So it could also be :
the hitting-stick will normally be with the thresher and not with the Doctor ?
Or the bad boys (not clever boys) wants to be with the thresher (manual work)and not with the Doctor/Teacher (reading)?
As I am thinking further maybe this is correct : ?
The hitting-stick will normally stay by the thresher or in the the hands of a thresher-man, rather that in the hands of a Doctor !

Maybe he just added ...chen to make it rime, and it would not mean anything..

Sãulchen = mail-box or square (can`t remember wich translator :-)
or Sãul/e = pillar
Schniebekeulchen = ?
Schniebe = hit with finger, titivate = smarten up..
"hit with finger", (cant`t remember translator) made me think of marbels..
keulchen = some small "pan-cakes" is called keulchen (quark-keulchen)
keul/e = club, leg, blackjack, joint

So it could of course mean :
The children play on the pillars with loud heavy clubs !
(As we have from original translation :-)

Example 2 :
(Kriecht auf dem Bauche durch den Reif.)
Dafur ihn bald die dűrren Poppen
Auch ziemlich auf die Pfoten kloppen

bald = soon
durren = dry, starved, thin etc..
poppen = to have sex...could have been from humping motion,,
meaning that it didn`t mean sex in the 1700 + ?
dry-sex could also be what dogs do on your leg :-)

kloppen = knocking

The problem with the "stiff fops" would be the word ihn = he
ihn bald = he soon , so durren poppen must be something that the dog do !
And quite on the paws knocks...?

If Reif = Frost it could also mean snow
And it could mean that soon the land is dry, and he knocks his paws..

These are the things I was uncertain about, and tried to get a meaning out of it...

Good luck with further interpretation..

I am going an a Holiday to family in German in a few weeks..
Maybe I will bring them the poem to look at...!?

Best
Oystein

[Michael]

>The tapping of the paws does not have to be part of the reaction - it may just be a pointer to the setup of the mechanism.


It sounds to me like the dog is a regulating mech. "He" knows how to work the parts.

Reg.

Mike

[Jonathan]

Could be that his paws get in the way of an action, thereby keeping it from happening until the right time.

[Stewart]

Die Flegel wollen insgemein
Bei Dreschern, nicht bei Doctern sein;

Flegel = boor/churl/cub/brat OR flail
wollen = to want
insgemain = in general/on the whole
bei = with/for
Dreschen = thrashing/threshing
nicht = not
Doctern = teaching
sein = to be

NOTE: The Doct, part of Doctern is in a Roman typeface. The latin translation is:

doceo docui doctum : to instruct, teach, tutor.
doctor : teacher.
doctrina : doctrine, teaching, instruction, learning.
doctus : taught, instructed, learned, tutored.

So the translation could be:
The brat generally wants thrashing, not teaching.

Also maybe:
The brat generally wants to be threshing, not to be taught.
(The brat generally wants to be with the thresher, not with the teacher)

Or:
The flail wants generally to be with the thresher, not with the teacher.

I think "Flegel" is more likely to be refering to a brat/lout rather than a flail though.

Stewart

[Jonathan]

I disagree, it seems to me to be a pun, expressing both a general truth and a mechanical truth specific to his machine. This seems all the more likely since the whole text is a poem, and poems are often full of symbolism and double meanings. (Reminds me of this: Fahrenheit 451->Fahrenheit 9/11->Celsius 41.11)

[Fletcher]

(Reminds me of this: Fahrenheit 451->Fahrenheit 9/11->Celsius 41.11)

Please explain the transformation (& connection albeit tenuous) between Fahrenheit 451 & Celsius 41.11 ?! "Doah" in advance :)

[Oystein]

To try to set thing straight about the Flegel and Drechern...

I think this is two "unseparateable" thing :

Flegel or a Dreshflegel as it is called is a tool that a Dresher (person) use for threshing.
Not today of course , but back then... (see attached picture !!)
As I wrote , a "hitting stick"...


Oystein

[Stewart]

Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" is a literary allusion to "Fahrenheit 451". "Fahrenheit 451" is a classic sci-fi novel by Ray Bradbury written in 1953 about a future where state censorship is extreme and books are routinely burned. Paper burns at a temperature of 451 degrees Fahrenheit (233 degrees Celsius). Moore sub-titled his film “The Temperature at which Truth Burns”. Citizens United has produced a film similar to Fahrenhype (an alternative to Moore's perspective), Celsius 41.11. Converting 41.11 Celsius to fahrenheit gives 106 degrees fahrenheit, "the temperature at which the brain begins to die."


Jonathan, you said:
"I disagree, it seems to me to be a pun, expressing both a general truth and a mechanical truth specific to his machine."

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. What do you disagree on - do you mean you think that "Flegel" means flail and not brat/lout? If so I agree it could well be, but even if it is brat/lout, it could still be a symbollic reference to machine parts. I think the general consensus at the moment is that this chapter of AP contains symbollic references to machine parts.

What do you think the flail/lout part means? I don't mean the hidden meaning (machine parts) just the general meaning. I'm trying to understand it as it's one of the only parts that doesn't make sense to me. Why would a flail want to be with the thresher, not with the teacher? If this makes sense to anyone then please explain. I understand the flail link to the thresher, but what about the teacher. Is it a cane for disciplining the students? Or is it something to do with flaying the skin from corpses (teacher of medicine) - I know Bessler used to boil down bones and sell skeletons:

"For it was soon my task to prepare skeletons by boiling the flesh off corpses and arranging the bones, all gleaming white, in proper order. Doctors rushed to purchase my wares, and soon I was earning good money from my rattling assemblages!" (from John Collin's book of Bessler's Apologia Poetica)

I find it easier to make sense of the sentence if it is talking about a person (brat) and not a thing (flail).

Stewart

[Jonathan]

I think we've both misunderstood each other sequentially. What I think is that all the interpretations were purposeful, they could read it then better than we can now. Here are some literal interpretations (literal ones are easier to come up with than mechanically symbolic ones):
"The brat generally wants thrashing, not teaching."
Here "wants" seems to be used in the same way as "asked" in "You asked for it!". Maybe: A brat learns better through punishment than through lecture.
"The brat generally wants to be threshing, not to be taught."
Kids want to go out and play? Maybe: It is preferable for a brat to work in the fields than to have him cause trouble in class.
"The flail wants generally to be with the thresher, not with the teacher."
This could be a jab at academics, calling them lazy, useless, and/or aloof (because the flail is the implement of the working class, they both have an air of subserviance as a result, but are in fact more important to the survival of civilization; possibly related to the biblical concept of the meek being the best people, and by negation, aloof academics as some of the worst).
As for symbolic interpretation, the list is endless. Of course near the top are the possibilities that interpret everything but the flail version of the pun, since the flail could so obviously be a part. But also, we could say flail=weight, thresher=earth, and teacher=sky, and it would make just as much sense (though this is doubtful since that is not really something that needs to be alluded to).
Thanks for explaining my political tangent. I suggest everyone see Moore's movie, it is the best comedy ever.

[ovyyus]

Hi Stewart,

Why would a flail want to be with the thresher, not with the teacher? If this makes sense to anyone then please explain.

... because a teacher does not thresh? ... or perhaps there is nothing to be learned from a teacher with a flail... or perhaps a teacher would not know how to use a flail properly?

I think it may be almost impossible to define Bessler's cryptic jargon poem - and that was his intention!

PS: Jonathan, I think attempting to marginalise Moore's film by simply labeling it as comedy is not a very intelligent critique.

[Jonathan]

(Warning, F9/11 spoiler ahead:)
Hey now, I think it is really something that I saw it all since I thought he was (an admittedly quick witted) moron before I saw it. I've seen him on the O'Reilly Factor and he was funny. What about the parts were he played the Bonanza theme song? Or when he quoted some statistic about how little Bush works, and asked 'So what was the President doing instead[of working]?', and then cut to a clip where Bush said "Diggin' up worms!" or something [actually talking about his dogs I think]. C'mon, that's hilarious! Or when he showed the pre-invasion Iraqi way of life, with children flying kites and people dancing at wedding parties, and then the post-invasion way of life, with a close up of a soldier and a huge fireball in the background? You're telling me that it wasn't funny? There were so many sarcastic lines, and dopes in the theater were laughing and shouting themselves hoarse saying "So true!".
Back on topic, I agree with your pre-PS point.

[Michael]

Not only impossible but its multiple meanings can be applied to almost any design.

Reg.

Mike

[Michael]

Hi Oystein,
You showed a picture of a guy in costume with a flail removing the wheat from the shaft, I believe. The wheat was in an equalateral triangle configuration. I don't know anything about this process. Is the configuration the wheat was in a standard one, and if so has it been that way for hundreds of years?

Reg.

Mike