Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

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winkle
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by winkle »

Ralph wrote
Once it is out there without a patent your own utility companies, big oil interests and world wide corporations dealing in energy related industries will bury you. With their money and political influence they will make a simple design change in your publication and patent it.
they could not patent you're design

they could only patent the small change they designed which they could even if you do patent
You can discuss your ideas and collaborate with others in a confidential environment without risk of loosing you patent rights, it is not considered published material to exchange communication with partners or associates via private communication. Large companies involved in R&D practice this daily.
yes they talk freely Ralph after they have a NDA

Some entering a collaborated agreement are satisfied with a verbal gesture such as an e-mailed proxy handshake. Others wish something in writing usually consisting of a partnered agreement written up on the kitchen table. Under a partnership limited to an enterprise for a specific item does not require an NDA or a CA it is automatically a binding part of the partnership
those kind of agreements work really well when you don't have jack squat to lose

My legal standing with James Kelly and Alan Bauldree is a registered partnership identified as an Enterprise, also known as a venture. The percentage of profit sharing is not addressed nor does it need be for the three of us to claim co-ownership of any patent applied for. The three of us have the right to edit any and all communication between us. We have access to each others computers limited to our research communication and web site.
well that ought to be good for one hell of a fight over who gets what when it comes to any cash

and

if that is all there is to you're agreement it means that any one of the three of you can sell a license on a patent to who ever they want without asking the other two


I have a key paragraph considered a 'blanket clause' that can be added to the end of your application that specifically states that any design in likeness which can be added to or augmented is covered under your patent. That is to say you are patenting any deviated form of the concept and not the machine 'as-built'. This clause is legal and has already been set by precedent
Ralph you better have a design for that deviation or you will not get anything from the patent office on it

True, the legal term and meaning of "publish" clearly states;

1. To prepare and issue printed material for public distribution or sale.
2. To announce, bring to the the public attention.

Private collaboration with those you trust does not meet the description of published material.
Ralph are you part of the public ?

if you answer yes to that question that would bring category number 2 into play

if he told you without an NDA it would be no different than telling any other member of the public


If published first, you best be standing at the patent office door and first in line. PTO in this country stands for Patent & Trademark Office. Literary copyright is handle by the Library of Congress and has no bearing or influence on a patent.
i don't know about England but in the US he would have one year after he went public to patent

after being published no one else can patent without proving priority

If any patent knowledgeable person finds fault in my above rambling, please for the benefit of all speak up!
i have been through the patent process i am speaking up

wake up Ralph you're slobbering all over you're self
the uneducated

if your gona be dumb you gota be tough

Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by Jim Williams »

What if the invention in question was the wheel itself rather than Bessler's wheel. Assuming such laws existed then, what would be the advantage in obtaining a patent on that first wheel? I'd argue rights. In the US the inventor has the right to exclude others to the invention for a set number of years. After the patent expires then the right to exclude others expires and everyone has the same rights to the same invention. But it is known everyone has rights to that published invention. No one could say you have no rights to the wheel, but must buy your wheel from a licenced manufacturer of wheels. You own the wheel as your own. This might all seem somewhat obscure, but I wouldn't put it past certain people claiming an invention on the level of Bessler's wheel as always belonging only to them if they could get away with it. Obtaining a patent would make it clear this invention is a right of humanity.
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by rlortie »

Ed,

I stand corrected on my statement regarding the MT wood cut being mentioned in the patent. It was pushing 2:00 Am my time and although I tried I could not find it to verify my recollections.

@ Jim_Mich, I too would be interested in reading your intended draft before broli made his usual debut.

'Arrache' being recognized as a consortium with an image to uphold, I will not recognize or respond to broli's comments made here.

@ winkle;
they could not patent you're design they could only patent the small change they designed which they could even if you do patent
True but you would still have priority rights to the invention and although they may outweigh you the could not stop you from competing against them.

For those who question my experience and knowledge regarding patents and R&D leading to patents, my 22 years with usace.army were not in vain. And yes although retired I retain certain access privileges.

http://www.usace.army.mil/CEMP/iis/Pages

http://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/pls/erdc ... _parent=46

/ResearchandDevelopment.aspx
http://usasearch.gov/search?v%3aproject ... ction=list&

http://usasearch.gov/search?v%3aproject ... ction=list&

http://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/pls/erdc ... ext_page=9

Ralph
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by genmurphy »

Hi John,

Why don't you just put it under a GNU GPL license ? Like this, all the derivated work will fall under the same license.

Genmurphy.
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Post by rlortie »

jim_mich wrote:I prepared an intelligent posting, but then broli posted his vomit. This forum now stinks, so I'll keep my distance.

On second thought...
I really don't understand how some people can be so terribly negative! Patents are simply tools to help society. They give an inventor a little edge so that he/she can possibly profit from an idea. In return society gains the knowledge of the invention. A patent is no guarantee that the inventor will be successful. Being successful depends more on the inventor's business skills than on the invention. Most inventors are very poor business people.
I agree! Society not only gains the knowledge but the benefits. As for the inventor being financially successful pertains to how the invention is managed, exploitation of the device and/or consumer costs of the end product.

@Daxwc,

I have often referred to the doings of Nikola Tesla on this forum. A renowned inventor with patents that made great advances in our standard of living. He obviously was not a business minded person. Selling his patents and signing NDA's with the likes of Westinghouse and JP Morgan made a New York state charity case out of him, he died penniless.

IMO management of a patent machine running on renewable energy in a manner benefiting all is a priority larger than the invention and patenting procedures.

Ralph
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by winkle »

Ralph wrote
True but you would still have priority rights to the invention and although they may outweigh you the could not stop you from competing against them.
you would own the patent

they would have to buy a license from you to be able to use their little change

just because they found a gimmick of some kind doesn't mean they would be able to attach you're priority rights
the uneducated

if your gona be dumb you gota be tough

Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by rlortie »

Winkle,

I presume that is a typing error in you last line; "but-buy'...

EDIT, I see you reworded while I was writing.

IMO you are correct, any patented improvement would still have to be licensed or a royalty contract issued for them to use it.

The blanket coverage I spoke of in my first post which broli attacked, is assurance against violation of such procedures.

It all takes you back to 'management'

Ralph
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by John Collins »

Why don't you just put it under a GNU GPL license ? Like this, all the derivated work will fall under the same license.
That sounds like an interesting idea, genmurphy. What do you think Jim_Mich? I'm not sure how one would go about doing that but I'll see what I can find out about it.

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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by Fletcher »

The fact remains that Bessler never published a blue-print of a working wheel - any copyright has long lapsed after so many years - prior art claims dubious as it's not likely to contain any unknown mechanical principles.

Anybody producing a working FE wheel today would have to explain where the energy was coming from to be self-sustaining, that is, where & how the energy is entering the system, causing inherent mobility & doing work [ordinary losses plus external loads] - whilst there won't be any new mechanical processes there will be an unusual mechanical application - the question is has this application been seen before, perhaps in another use & format, but the same principle nonetheless - in which case any patent must be centered around a 'method application' i.e. a unique use of the principle or combination in such a way that something quite unique results.

Then the door is well open for all & any variations of the principle, not covered by the scope of your patent [has to be detailed but also generalistic] to be patented ursurping your original patent - this is why corporations have teams of lawyers & deep pockets.

At best, if interest goes viral, then your legal fire power & private bank vault might convince a few who would exploit your ideas to negotiate with you under license perhaps - if it is so earth shattering & easy to build then all & sundry will just plagiarize it [you're not going to sue everyone] with little fear of real consequences.

The upshot is that it wouldn't be known as Bessler's wheel - just a few diehards like this forums members might refer to it as that, if the link was eventually proven to be more than tenuous & that might take a scholarly effort & many years [that's where Bessler did himself no favours] - the bulk of the world would call it the 21st century 'xyz engine' aka Free Energy machine or the "Apache drive", sorry Ralph, couldn't resist.

Find the one element of the design [& derivations] that the whole thing hinges on - patent or licence, or otherwise protect that if you must - that is assuming that it is in fact a new application of old technology not already in the public arena in some form or fashion.
Last edited by Fletcher on Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by John Collins »

Further to genmurphy's suggestion I found this which looks promising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_D ... on_License

"The GNU Free Documentation License (GNU FDL or simply GFDL) is a copyleft license for free documentation, designed by the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for the GNU Project. It is similar to the GNU General Public License, giving readers the rights to copy, redistribute, and modify a work and requires all copies and derivatives to be available under the same license. Copies may also be sold commercially, but, if produced in larger quantities (greater than 100), the original document or source code must be made available to the work's recipient.

The GFDL was designed for manuals, textbooks, other reference and instructional materials, and documentation which often accompanies GNU software. However, it can be used for any text-based work, regardless of subject matter. For example, the free online encyclopedia Wikipedia used to use the GFDL for all of its text."
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by rlortie »

@genmurphy & John,

Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't GNU GPL licensing strictly related to computer software. I would place it in a category closer to a literary copyright-(copyleft) than a Patent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft

Edit: John we crossed paths! Sounds great if you are only interested in protecting the users manual for the machine.

Ralph
Last edited by rlortie on Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by Fletcher »

Sounds like a good option for someone writing a book John, especially if it were in part an intended instruction manual - "The Art of Zen & Free Energy Mechanics"
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by winkle »

Ralph
The blanket coverage I spoke of in my first post which broli attacked, is assurance against violation of such procedures.
to the best of my knowledge you must have drawings and a list of claims to present to the USPTO

i don't understand what you're calling blanket coverage

i've never heard of any thing like that

maybe that you're talking about making the claims broad enough to give you blanket coverage

that might be really hard to do since Bessler said there was more than one principle
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by Fletcher »

Exactly winkle !
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re: Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

Post by genmurphy »

Hi John,

I am pretty sure that you could use such a license for a mechanical design. Maybe the best is to contact the FSF (free software foundation). you will surely find someone there to help you. It might result in a modified GPL license tailored to a mechanical design. Today, the GPL is there to protect software code but I do not think that the idea of protecting a mechanical design is very different.

Genmurphy.
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