Plump Horses

[justsomeone]

From the Apologia Poetica, Thanks John

a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly

I was discussing this with ABHAMMER the other night and I thought I would share my thoughts here.

If the plump horses are the weights that drive the wheel, what was he trying to say about " wanders aimlessly "?

In most of his drawings the weights take a direct path. In a direct path, I would not consider it wandering aimlessly.

A design where the weight is free to move anywhere in it's compartment may be wandering aimlessly. Or possible a weight attached to MT 18 may also qualify. Thanks Bill for MT18.

What do you think?

[jim_mich]

a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly

Most people's wheels are designed for the weights to move along specific path, such as out on one side then in on the other side. Imagine a wheel that contains weights that are always balanced around the wheel thus gravity never comes into play. But when the wheel is rotated then CF causes the weights to move in and out while still remaining always balanced. In such a wheel the movement of the weights would seem like "wandering aimlessly" because a weight might be outward to one side during one rotation but during the next rotation the weight might be inward. Thus it would seem like they are wondering aimlessly. Fat plump horses wandering aimlessly seems to describe things accurately.

The lazy part seems confusing. Why would such weights be described as lazy? Could there be some confusion in the translation? Could there be some alternate meaning of the original Old German word that got translated as lazy? Bessler was crafty in the use of words. He could make you think one thing while the secondary meanings of his words kept him from lying.

[ovyyus]

I think the path of the weights is largely irrelevant once an energy source is defined. The reason is that any number of different 'lazy weight' systems will work once harnessed to a legitimate energy source.

[FunWithGravity2]

IMHO

Wanders aimlessly is obviously "going around in circles"

They are big and move slow while they do this, this is the driven weight not the drive weight.

Jim, Lazy explains why they are the driven weight, they don't move themselves AKA "lazy"


Bill, yes i agree, if the Lazy secondary OOB system is the "lazy system" then many will work once the prime mover is harnessed to it.


Crazy dave

[justsomeone]

"Going around in circles " , Dave, I never thought about it that way.
Makes a lot of sense.

I have always agreed with your " lazy " interpetation.

Jim, I still don't agree with your balanced wheel theory but I like how you are trying to capture C.F. and use it. If all Bessler's wheels were one directional then I believe they would be all over balanced. JMO

[Music_man]

Intresting how he used "fat" and "plump" almost like a double negative. It could be describing the drive weight which would have to be larger. Maybe it moves slower pulling smaller weights faster.

Rick

[Stewart]

Here's the original text:

Hier wandern eine grosse Heerde
Sehr fette/ faule/ dicke Pferde/

and my translation (but see word lists that follow for alternative meanings):

here wander a large herd
[of] very fat, lazy, thick horses,

wandern = [verb] to wander, to travel (on foot), to journey (across country), to walk, to go, to tramp (it), to trudge along

grosse (groß) = big, large, great

fette (fett) = fat, fleshy, stout, greasy, fatty
sehr fett = very fat, obese

faule (faul) = 1) rotten, putrid, decaying, corrupt; 2) unsound, doubtful, inferior, of low quality, worthless; 3) lazy, slothful, sluggish, idle, slow, drowsy

dicke (dick) = thick
dick gebaut = [of horses and dogs] thick-set
dick gehen = [of horses] to be in foal

Note that the adverb 'aimlessly' seen in John's translation is not used by Bessler in the original.

Anyway, I hope this helps, but I would also just like to remind people that we have no idea whether in this chapter of AP (46), the possible metaphors have any relation to Bessler's PM wheel mechanism. Bessler refers to them as "Wort-Gepränge" (word-pageantry). In a 1773-1858 German encyclopedia, 'Wort-Gepränge' is described as follows:
Wortgepränge, die zwecklose Einkleidung eines Gedankens in viele und schöne Worte. - which translates as: the pointless decoration of a thought in many and fine words. So just be careful as there could be a less obvious reason for the words used, i.e. a seemingly random collection of words could be part of a cipher. If it's a mechanism you're after then in my opinion your time would probably be better spent studying MT than trying to piece together something from chapter 46 of AP. If there is a direct relationship between the metaphors and parts of the wheel then it will probably only be useful (or even possible) to make any sort of comparison once you've come up with a mechanism by other means.

Stewart

[Gregory]

a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly

The lazy part seems confusing. Why would such weights be described as lazy? Could there be some confusion in the translation? Could there be some alternate meaning of the original Old German word that got translated as lazy? Bessler was crafty in the use of words. He could make you think one thing while the secondary meanings of his words kept him from lying.

I could not express my own thoughts any better as you did, Jim. I have the same opinion.

Fat, lazy, thick/plump...
These words can describe a slow motion action, or a slow acceleration from motionless stages. The reason for this can be: heavy weights on a small radius for the swinging pairs, or not as heavy weights but on a big radius.

A large herd may suggests a lot of heavy weights with a small radius movement. (With long radius a herd can hardly fit into the inner space of the wheel, also they would possibly disturb the wheel's motion for a much greater degree) Peacock's tail can also come in mind here with those eye patterns.

The weights possibly need to be heavy for reasons. (greater inertial momentum to properly drive a storage mechanism)


Just pure speculation, of course! ;)

[greendoor]

My pure speculation on this goes something like this: A relatively high number of energy-rich, slow-moving weights roll around randomly.

In my conception of how Bessler's principle works, we have a process of firing small weights upwards, very quickly - compared to their descent, which is significantly slower. This means that there must be some sort of 'upstairs waiting room' where these weights must linger, awaiting their turn to descend. I imagine they have plenty of excess energy, and tend to roll around, colliding into each other, and it doesn't really matter which one goes down next ...

[Ben]

Bill wrote,

"I think the path of the weights is largely irrelevant once an energy source is defined. The reason is that any number of different 'lazy weight' systems will work once harnessed to a legitimate energy source."

Bill,
the energy comes from the path of the weights. It's the most relevant thing about the wheel, the path is, and it's supposed to be elyptical.
Ben

[ovyyus]

Ben, the path a weight takes isn't a legitimate energy source. With a legitimate energy source almost anything can be accomplished. Without a legitimate energy source no work is possible and our quest is doomed.

[Ben]

Bill,
I disagree. The weights use gravity to create the energy source, or gravity moves the weights to cause the wheel to turn, however you want to look at it, but the model I'm working on totally proves my point. So, my point is backed by physical evidence. I'm not arguing just to argue.
Thanks,
Ben

[Music_man]

I know my model uses gravity to move weights which in turn move other weights, I have built it and it does work problem is getting enough movement to be useful, usually friction slows it down in my case so it does not continue to move

Rick

[Ben]

Music man,
I know exactly what you mean, getting it to move enough. But if you add up, "the weights acted in pairs" and "the wheel moves slowly with only one crossbar"(and that makes me believe there'd be two weights in a crossbar), I come to the conclusion a study of two weights may lead to the answer with a lot less work than building an eight weight or larger model. I've built a six weight model, I think more than six different eight weight models, and always got basically the same result. If the prototype with two weights gave a little less than half a turn, duplication never sends it over the top. The eight weight model I posted was basically a hammer guy design, and it only shocked the wheel on impact, and if the springs were loose enough to allow impact, they were too loose to return the weight. So, I’ve decided to make a study exclusively of two weight models, and it has been interesting.
Ben

[Music_man]

I am essentially doing the same thing 1 crossbar however one crossbar in my design has 4 weights and has no possibility of doing a full circle, how ever if I can get it to do more than a quarter I think that will do it. Bessler said there is more than 1 way to get there.

Rick