Plump Horses

[nicbordeaux]

Music man,
I know exactly what you mean, getting it to move enough. But if you add up, "the weights acted in pairs" and "the wheel moves slowly with only one crossbar"(and that makes me believe there'd be two weights in a crossbar), I come to the conclusion a study of two weights may lead to the answer with a lot less work than building an eight weight or larger model. I've built a six weight model, I think more than six different eight weight models, and always got basically the same result. If the prototype with two weights gave a little less than half a turn, duplication never sends it over the top. The eight weight model I posted was basically a hammer guy design, and it only shocked the wheel on impact, and if the springs were loose enough to allow impact, they were too loose to return the weight. So, I’ve decided to make a study exclusively of two weight models, and it has been interesting.
Ben

Good thinking Ben,

Seeing what happens in the simplest posible mode is the way to go. Too many sliders, weights or else just leads to so many interactons you don't stand a chance of seeing what's going on. Just my two cents.

Nick

ps: wasn't going to mention it to avoid trouble, but why not... Dicke is a noun and can refer to thickness, depth or fatness. Not just "fat" from where one could deduce "slow" as has been suggested.

[Music_man]

I think weights work in pairs referes to a pair of weights on each end of the crossbar, That is what I am presuing it is interesting but I also keep it simple one crossbar experiment at a time

Rick

[Ben]

Rick,
The first models I built were similar to what you are referring. A photo of the most advanced of that type was one my first posts on this forum. There were weights on either end of an arm. There were three arms, with each arm on its own level. The wheel, as it turned out moved in thirds, and was very impressive to see. It made everyone I showed believe in the possibility of a gravity powered machine. When I doubled the recipe (the one shown in the photo), and gave it six arms and twelve weights, it proved to be unsuccussful. You can see it here;
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_id

You may be mistaken about what a crossbar is, but so might I. I think each arm holds one weight that pivots on a pin, or dowel. The dowel is stuck in the larger wheel. To hold the dowel straight, it must be supported on two ends. I think the crossbar is the other support for the dowel to hold the arms movement straight.

Ben

[Music_man]

I am looking at the crossbar as possibly just a connecting of the weights not necesarily a solid crossbar I am working with a line now to connect the 2 sides together so they work together. Gravity effects both sides in a different way but they work together. Sorry can't explain a whole lot more without totally giving it away. We will see I am hopeful along with 1000,s of other people.

Rick

[DrWhat]

You see the crossbar cold be a thin metal rod that slides through the axle, and being such (with a big IF) then the crossbar could connect any form of eg dual mechanisms of any complexity.

I'd err on the side of Bessler maintaining strong ambiguity in his comments. Meaning that the simplest explanation of the cross bar is probably the least likely.

Just my thoughts to add to the mix.

Damian

[Ben]

Dr What,
If the axle is firmly fixed, as is described by Bessler, a hole won't do you much good.
Ben

[Music_man]

What I am working with could be a solid or non-solid connection it would work the same with either it is just easier connecting with a line.

Rick

[ruggerodk]

Ben and MusicMan....I think you are on the right track, by working with only one crossbar.

On the 'Plump Horses' quote, I remember that Bessler once wrote somewhere in MT, that you have to put the Horse in front of the cart...
If gravity was interpreted as 'air' (something that was not yet understood in 1712) as the power source i.e. 'the herd of horses' then the 'fat horses' would be anywhere around you in the eather waiting for one to 'collect' the air for a direct purpose. This purpose could well have been an air-bellow.

regards
ruggero ;-)

[nicbordeaux]

Could also be "put the cart before the horse" or as in french "mettre la charrue avant les boeufs". In English there can be a notion of false premises, in French it's more restrictive, meaning to do things in the right order, or sequence. Or not go too fast in attempting something, therefore missing the esential point.

Is there (or was there) a German idiom (if it's an idiom...) which is similar and would be phrased exactly or similarly to this "Bessler clue" ?

[Stewart]

Is there (or was there) a German idiom (if it's an idiom...) which is similar and would be phrased exactly or similarly to this "Bessler clue" ?

Yes - Bessler just uses it in reverse...

In German there are these idioms:

das Pferd beim Schwanze aufzäumen = to bridle the horse at the tail
die Pferde hinter den Wagen spannen = to harness the horses behind the cart

both are equivalent to the English expression "to put the cart before the horse" and mean: to reverse the accepted order of things; to do something in the wrong order or the wrong way; to begin something at the wrong end; etc.

In MT20 Bessler says he reminded his friend "die Pferde forne anzuspannen" = to harness/hitch_up the horses at the front, or in other words to do things in the right order or the right way, or to connect things up at the right end, etc.

Stewart

[ruggerodk]

Thank you Stewart ;-)

The 'correct order' makes me think about the hammer men on the Toy page: What if the handles were NOT the 'horse' but the 'cart'?
I mean...let the hammer fall and it will push the handle.
That could be the correct order....but opposit of what one might have learned(?)
regards
ruggero ;-)

[WaltzCee]

Ben, the path a weight takes isn't a legitimate energy source. With a legitimate energy source almost anything can be accomplished. Without a legitimate energy source no work is possible and our quest is doomed.

The idea of a gravity powered wheel is the single downward force of gravity causes weights to rearrange to the extent some of the weight manages to rise above the rest; hence the creation of energy.

This is a most difficult task to accomplish with the single force of gravity.

I just finished another analysis and created another idea to add to the heap. It's a little sad for me. I supposed it had great promise. I'm running out of ideas.

Often times people want to know the details of a build. I'll share the analysis. The moment the weight began to move was the precise moment the system center of gravity began to descend below the axis of rotation. It never could recover.

It was a hell of an idea.

I've driven weights directly and at various ratios. I've hooked them up with strings. I've used smoke and mirrors. I've tried everything! I've damn near given up.

I do have one last idea I suppose relies on the intrinsic nature of time/space itself. I've been examining it as best I can. I think it's my last idea.

Walter

[DrWhat]

Walter,

frustrating isn't it. Join the club!

Damian

[WaltzCee]

Damian,

I just pass on ideas.

Walter,

frustrating isn't it. Join the club!

Damian

Hello Damian,

There's a gradient between 2 masses moving at different rates. It's an expansion like the one in an engine after the spark.

I looked at the idea earlier and it appeared to be a wash. I then changed the timing of the expansion and it looks promising.

You are right. It can be frustrating. I'm pretty sure this is my final idea.


Walter

[nicbordeaux]

Waltzcee : it's you last idea (maybe) pertaining to wheels. I'd suggest that if that fails, take a look at oscillators, with all the knowledge and understanding you've gained from wheels, you'll probably achieve something.