Ghost Pivots

[KAS]

Imagine waking up one morning after dreaming that you found a way to manipulate fixed pivots in such a way as to control where and when they influence your wheel. In this dream, you are able to direct weighted pivots to appear and disappear during the rotation at points and times of your choosing.

Just a pipe dream Yes? Not any more!

Like a bulb illuminating in my head; it appeared to me the other night in all its brow slapping simplicity.
I can’t believe how I’ve missed it all these years, and in an area where I have done extensive work in the past.

The wheel itself doesn’t possess any pivots or any points for that matter that anchor moving sub systems. Yet, it contains rotating weights; weights that act on ghost pivots; orbiting them for a brief moment before the pivots disappear, causing the weights to go in search for them elsewhere in the rotation.

It has no slots or rails either, making it the simplest of designs.

If it works, and I have every confidence that it will, it will be almost too embarrassing to patent. It is that simple!
I should be able to knock it up in a couple of weeks or so.

The weights will knock against the rim on the descent, it’s unavoidable, and my calculations have revealed significant torque values; more (I think) than the assembly materials can cope with.

Could this be it? Well, I have talked the talk, now I have to walk the walk.

Watch this space.
Kas

[nicbordeaux]

A ghost pivot not being magnetic in nature ?

[KAS]

No, not magnetic nicbordeaux,

I wish I could explain it better, but just has Bessler said "a single word would give it away"

There must be some skeptics out there who, after reading this thread, will think that I've finally "lost it".
I mean, how can a wheel containing moving parts have no pivots??

Well, believe me when I state, apart from the axle, it contains no pivots what so ever. Yet, it contains 8 swinging weights.

And when you think about it, it answers a lot of questions; for instance.

We all know that friction is our biggest enemy, even when using the latest bearings. Well when you consider the bearing technology in the early eighteenth century, it must have been a bloody nightmare for Bessler.

I now think it possible that he succeeded because he found a way to eliminate most of the friction; and by that I mean that he may have built pivotless systems.

This "ghost pivot" is real. In the sense that it acts on the wheel as if it were fixed, but as soon as it moves, its orbiting weight moves with it.

It's fascinating but very simple.

Kas

[Art]

Hi Kas,

Would you be talking about a weight dangling on the end of a

spring ? ;-)

Regards Art

[DrWhat]

MT has several examples of non pivot machines.

Bessler did say that his weights retained the power of free movement. And he removed the weights from his wheel we could assume easily. This does not totally exclude pivots, but I often wonder if his free weights simply rolled along "predetermined paths" (is that sort of a tautology!).

[coylo]

... 'ghost pivots' - I like that analogy.

I once tried to do this.... to try and get such pivots to move in sync with a point of rotation (& no - not directly verticle hanging underneath, I'm talking x-axis here) on the rim of a wheel, but it all got very complicated and I abandoned the search as other ideas crept in. Even if you could manage this for say- 10* degrees (before the arrangement expired) you could arrange these pivots to ghost in and out- one lined up to cut in after the prevoius one had done it's job.

[graham]

Watch this space.
Kas

Best of luck with your idea Kas. I shall certainly watch this space and I like the fact that you are being "out in the open with it" whatever the outcome you have my support and thanks.

Graham

[KAS]

Thanks all for the words of support.

The reason I think that this should be a winner is because; for the first time with any of my designs, I am able to tick all of the following.

1. occurence of Radial transference (weights exchange radii during rotation).
2. occurence of Axial transference (more weights remain on one side of the wheel than on the other).
3. Reduced friction (no need for the use of fixed pivots).
4. And heres the biggy! Reactionless transference (counter forces cancelled out by similar moment on the opposite side).

Previously, I would have been lucky to have ticked two of these.

Kas

[KAS]

Hi Kas,

Would you be talking about a weight dangling on the end of a

spring ? ;-)

Regards Art

No, I'm afraid not Art.

If anything dangles, it would either have to act as a pivot or wrap itself around a static point. But this system has neither pivots (apart from the axle) nor static points, other than 8 stops for halting the swinging weights on the rim (nothing is suspended from them).

I know it is difficult to get your head around as it appears to step outside of reality, but I assure you, the implausible is plausible if you think outside the box long and hard enough.

Kas

[Art]

Kas,

Your Idea sounds really interesting - even if it doesnt use springs ! :-) .

All the best with the build , Im looking forward to hearing your results when the time is right .

All the Best

Art

[KAS]

Just to keep you all updated.

WM2D (for what use it is) cannot cope with this design so I have used Autocad with all its useful analysis tools.

Here are the torque values from 2 of the 16 moment readings through 360 deg.

Throughout the rotation, the positive torque is averaging +85, and don't forget; there is virtually no pivot friction.

I think it illustrates that the materials need to be of a strength that can cope with this acceleration.

This all seems very weird! And if it all goes to plan, I can see that I will need to be very careful here.

Kas

[rlortie]

Kas,

Being from the 'old' school I rely on taking torque measurments using the Prony brake system measured in inch or foot pounds radiating from the axle.

I see that your weights are not symmetrical and question the vertical reference line dissecting the axis.

Would you be so kind to explain how you arrived at these figures for us old farts who are not into simulation programs?

To the eye (mine anyway) your torque values do not correspond to what would be derived with a straight edge ruler run from opposing weights. I see negative back torque where you indicate positive.

Ralph

[KAS]

Hi Ralph,

I was waiting for one of you "old school farts" to play the accuracy card.

As you probably know using a measurement from the vertical is a quick and easy way to measure the affectiveness of applied torque, without embroiling oneself in the complexities of angular vector torque measurement.

As we all know, torque is a measurement of the F x r (Force x Distance to pivot) when perpendicular to the angle of the arm (90 deg)

But if you measure from a line, through the pivot (parallel with the direction of the force) the distance value increases and decrease at a ratio that provides similar values to torque vector measurements without getting into the intricacies of trigonometry.

I could break it down with angular vector measurement if I wanted to be more accurate but I would need to do it 16 times (one for each rotational frame).

The values are just values. You can attribute them to anything you like, The F and r can be it Lbs per ft or Newtons per Metre. The point being, the values on the left averages around 85 more than that on the right throughout rotation.

Kas

[rlortie]

Kas,

Torque values aside. I am impressed with your your asymmetrical weight distribution and the distance of transference within 22.5 degrees.

Your weights do not appear to be following a radial 22.5 degrees as measured by chord distance. I will be looking forward to learning your method on how you accomplish this without uni-pivots and no back torque.

Ralph

[AB Hammer]

Kas

I will admit I suck at simulations. Thanks to you I have at least been able to view them. Thanks again on this.
I have a grid that tells me positive or negative for stagnant placements and if you turn it on its side you can use it for keel placements. The addition of both tell another story to if we have a possible runner. Some that I have done and others I have read, show overwhelming overbalance but sideways for the keel numbers, tends to kill the overall numbers. Here is a link to the grid.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_id

I am only posting this for I have seen allot of us overlook the keel line "9:00 to 3:00" problems

Alan