Can Bessler's wheel be patented?

[John Collins]

Thanks Trevor, and I haven't forgotten that I said I'd put a link to your web site from mine.

I guess if I sent in a patent application I'd have to call it something else? But I'm sure they are perfectly capable of seeing through any duplicity such as calling it a gravity-converter or a rotating device or some such term. Any suggestions welcomed.

JC

[Chad]

Call it a engine amplifier, say it can be bolted to an engine to amplify the output :D

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi JC,

the stupid thing is that the Conservation Laws would not be contravened by a gravity wheel as there would be an energy input (gravity) wherein the output of a gravity wheel would be less than the input because of system losses (friction)! thus a Gravity Wheel would be in compliance with the Energy Laws.

[nicbordeaux]

Great thinking Chad. How about : the present device pertains to space travel and consists of a wheel running on an undisclosed source, it may also be used by develloping nations to enable payload delivery via DIY ICBM, the drive is photonic in nature but not fully comprehended by the inventor and the design is based on classified material found on high security computer records pertaining to the Roswell incident. ?

[jim_mich]

Just be truthful! Don't file a patent application until you have a actual working perpetual motion wheel.

Then explain in the application that there is some controversy concerning the name "perpetual motion" with the usual modern technical definition being:

Motion that continues indefinitely without the added assistance of any external source of energy; impossible in practice because of friction.

In regards to your patent the definition of perpetual motion needs to be clarified by adding the word 'tangible' to the definition and by removing the impossibility statement. Thus a definition of Classical Perpetual Motion reads as follows:

Motion that continues indefinitely without the added assistance of any external tangible source of energy.

Explain that a tangible source of energy would include anything that can be sensed or measured such as electricity, pressure variations, temperature variations, all types of fuels, radiant energy of any type, etc. Any type of energy that can be blocked from flowing into a device is considered a tangible energy source.

Energy that is not tangible would include any energy that cannot be blocked from entering the device such as gravity or the inertial effects of motion. If a device gains energy from gravity or if it gains energy from the inertial effects of its motion then these sources of energy are consider to come from within the device. Such a device is defined as classical perpetual motion.

[KAS]

There was once a British patent application that was rejected because the inventor only gave a theoretical explanation of the principle. Alas, he did not have a working prototype.
In fairness to the patent office, they only rejected the application after he failed to prove of principle.
I was amazed that they didn't dismiss it outright, but that they gave him a chance to prove what he had written.

I don't believe the PO is as unapproachable as people make them out to be.

Now, all I need is a working wheel!

Kas

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi to all,

If you intend to apply for a Patent for Gravity Wheel do not expect to be treated fare as the rules change for gravity wheels, they do things like publish the hearing results but then do not publish your patent application, even though you paid for it and requested it, I do not know why but it seems to me they can then say things like your patent application was not complete as it contravened the Energy Laws thus a knowledgeable person would not be able to understand it, but as nobody can see my application they can say what they want! who would you believe a perpetual motion seeker or the Patent Office?

The sad thing is that when you guys search the Patent records you are not seeing all of the application that should be there, thus if you come with the same ideas how will you know! this could cost people a lot of money and considering the Patent Office was set up for the transfer of information and knowledge they have under minded there own reason for being, why?

That is a question I would like to be answered, if this has happened to you let me know, thank you all.

[jim_mich]

On the US PTO website you can search all patent application since March 2001. Also if you don't specifically request otherwise your application will automatically be published after about 18 months. And of course if you are granted a patent then the final patent is published. You can download the patent examiner's handbook that tells the examiners how they are to perform their examination. If you send a patent application written on the back of a napkin then you can expect it to be rejected. My point being you must follow their rules of how to write and submit the application. If you don't fully clearly explain the invention then it will get rejected. The main reason for hiring a patent attorney is for his knowledge of what the patent office expects.

You can also use Google to search US patents.

[KAS]

In the UK, we also have regional development agencies. These provide advice and financial help on a 50/50 basis for research, patenting, promoting and putting the inventor in touch with the right people to move an invention forward.
They are a "hand up" not an "hand out" however, and will require their money back when the product goes into profitable production.
The good thing about them is: they are regional government and they have clout when it comes to the Patent Office.

Kas

[nicbordeaux]

Don't see that patent in one country would do a lot of good, unless my understanding is wrong. Patent in UK or some other remote place, somebody else can patent in every other country in the world just by copying your material ?

[jim_mich]

somebody else can patent in every other country in the world just by copying your material ?

It so frustrating to repeatedly read so much disinformation concerning patents. People, please read and learn about patents before you engage your typing fingers! A patent in one country becomes "prior art", that means it cannot be patented in other countries except by the original patent owner. Thus if the original patent owner doesn't patent in any other country then the invention can be used freely in those other countries.

This means that (for instance) if I or someone else receives a US patent then files and receives patents in other major countries in Europe and countries in the far East such as India, Japan and China the invention could be made and used freely in all other countries such as in Africa and South America. Thus the inventor would receive royalties from the richer countries while the invention could be used legally in the poorer countries. Isn't that a good way to go?

[John Collins]

Thanks for clearing that up Jim.

If, as the first step, you apply for a patent, does that mean that once you have a receipt for the initial application, you immediately have priority - and more importantly does that mean that, even at that early stage, you have priority in other countries? All this before even the next step has been taken?

I understand what you are saying in reference to patents but how does it apply to early patent applications?

I ask because I am contemplating applying for a patent for my design but if merely registering an application does not confer priority on your patent except in the country you apply in, then I see little point in proceeding. The reason being that I could not afford to apply for patents around the world unless I had a working model to offer. In that case I would borrow the money if necessary, but if, on the other hand, my build were to end in failure (and it might) then even though I have the design principal to patent, and which I know will lead to a working model, I might not be able to afford the worldwide application costs, which run into thousands of pounds/dollars.

JC

[rlortie]

John wrote;

The reason being that I could not afford to apply for patents around the world unless I had a working model to offer.

John, I would not consider applying for a patent until I had a runner. You will likely need an operating prototype to prove your claims.

Even with a running model you could be looking at a lengthy appeals process taking up to three years before knowing if you win or loose.

Ralph

[jim_mich]

Basically most industrial countries have signed treaties concerning patents. These treaties allow you to file patent applications in countries other than your own up to one year after you first file in your own country. These other counties have agreed that they will use the priority date of you original first application in your own country. This gives you up to one year to decide if you want/need to file in other countries.

I see no reason to file any patent application until one has a working wheel. Of course that means that you must keep the wheel secret until you have it built and tested, else someone might beat you to the patent office. This is a big problem except in the USA where only the original inventor may obtain a patent. In most other countries the first one to file gets the patent.

Most patent attorneys will give you a first consultation free of charge.

If you contemplate filing in other countries, it is advisable to use a patent attorney that is experienced with foreign patents. Not all patent attorneys or agents have the needed experience.

I'm not a patent attorney. I've gained my knowledge from David Pressman's book.

[John Collins]

Thanks guys. I guess I'll stick to my original plan.

JC