Here we try and expose the folly and foibles of our fellow man.
The easiest person to deceive is ourselves.
The search for truth.
Moderator: scott
re: The search for truth.
Thank you Patrick. I couldn't have said it better myself...
Thanks for visiting BesslerWheel.com
"Liberty is the Mother, not the Daughter of Order."
- Pierre Proudhon, 1881
"To forbid us anything is to make us have a mind for it."
- Michel de Montaigne, 1559
"So easy it seemed, once found, which yet unfound most would have thought impossible!"
- John Milton, 1667
"Liberty is the Mother, not the Daughter of Order."
- Pierre Proudhon, 1881
"To forbid us anything is to make us have a mind for it."
- Michel de Montaigne, 1559
"So easy it seemed, once found, which yet unfound most would have thought impossible!"
- John Milton, 1667
Re: The search for truth.
i have been suckered many times but have never been suckered by eny one else my own greed or self interest is what what brought the suckering on if we get greedy and it works out thats fine if it don't work out in our favor we blame the other guy for suckering us we really don't like to place falt where it belongs with our greed and self interest i have learned the fault lies with me not some one else just something to think aboutPatrick wrote:Here we try and expose the folly and foibles of our fellow man. The easiest person to deceive is ourselves.
the uneducated
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
re: The search for truth.
The search for truth. What is truth . Truth is different things to different people.There is personal truth and absolute truth. If you went back in time and asked the man in the street "Is the Earth flat?" He would say that it was. and he woyld be telling the truth. The Truth, that is in as much as he knew the truth. Today , most people would accept the truth to be otherwise. Can you imagine a world where everyone told the truth? Would it be possible, or even disirable? Imagine having to answer questions such as " Do you really love me?" or "Does my bum look big in this?" I Venture to suggest life would be impossible without lies.I used to think that only humans lied. But deception is practised in the animal kingdom too.By having stripes, the tiger is trying to decieve us into thinking it is not really there. In the Legal world, we have oaths and so called lie detectors[which only work by frightening the victim/culprit]. People still lie. The search for truth? Believe me its gonna be a long one, and thats no lie.
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justsomeone
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re: The search for truth.
I was excited for a moment when I clicked on this thread.
PATRICK is back!
Then I see it was from 05.
Oh well.
PATRICK is back!
Then I see it was from 05.
Oh well.
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LustInBlack
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re: The search for truth.
I had tingly feelings for nothing.. 8[
re: The search for truth.
The topic is a worthy one and deserves to stand and stay at the top of the list with whatever contributions any of us can make in regards to that all-important "search for the truth".
In the final analysis the only real truth being sought out is one about ourselves and by extension that of the world we each of us find ourselves in, regardless of however else we might care to think of or describe that.
It's sad and unfortunate that Patrick was so embarassed and seemed to have such a difficult time forgiving himself for needing to be reminded of such an all too human truth.
Of course we all need reminding of that one and on a constant basis for it is the most difficult one of all to remember and our egos always prefer a vigorously duked-out denial and defence of forgetting it to the more humbling act of admitting that they forgot as always in some headlong rush to simply run away with themselves and drag whatever common sense we have right along in all the diirt and dust behind.
We certainly aren't perfect, any of us, but when it comes to decieving ourselves it's always as much of a group effort as it ever is an individual one, and there's never any lack of help to cheer us on in any run straight down the proverbial garden path...hmmm?
Our own expectations, both of ourselves and of others, are very rarely deliberately chosen. We simply acquire them along the way without realizing that by and large they are related to ideas about what our "ideal" behavior ought to be without the slightest regard for the fact that the circumstances we generally expect it the most in are always anything but ideal when it actually comes to trying to live up to any of them.
All that matters is that we intend to try, not that we can or ever will in more than a few instances even if we're lucky, and accept that we wouldn't be human at all if it was any different from that.
In the final analysis the only real truth being sought out is one about ourselves and by extension that of the world we each of us find ourselves in, regardless of however else we might care to think of or describe that.
It's sad and unfortunate that Patrick was so embarassed and seemed to have such a difficult time forgiving himself for needing to be reminded of such an all too human truth.
Of course we all need reminding of that one and on a constant basis for it is the most difficult one of all to remember and our egos always prefer a vigorously duked-out denial and defence of forgetting it to the more humbling act of admitting that they forgot as always in some headlong rush to simply run away with themselves and drag whatever common sense we have right along in all the diirt and dust behind.
We certainly aren't perfect, any of us, but when it comes to decieving ourselves it's always as much of a group effort as it ever is an individual one, and there's never any lack of help to cheer us on in any run straight down the proverbial garden path...hmmm?
Our own expectations, both of ourselves and of others, are very rarely deliberately chosen. We simply acquire them along the way without realizing that by and large they are related to ideas about what our "ideal" behavior ought to be without the slightest regard for the fact that the circumstances we generally expect it the most in are always anything but ideal when it actually comes to trying to live up to any of them.
All that matters is that we intend to try, not that we can or ever will in more than a few instances even if we're lucky, and accept that we wouldn't be human at all if it was any different from that.
Fondest Regards from the Fox
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nicbordeaux
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re: The search for truth.
The truth. If ever there was a silly notion, it's abosolute truth. Truth can only be what we believe it to be, and what primarily causes belief is our perception. Play chess ? Think you see a checkmate two and a half moves ahead ? You might be wrong in that you've missed that the opponent is going to play something you don't wan't him to, or by playing for your surefire checkmate you're exposing yourself badly. The truth at the time you figured out the move was that you had the game won. The truth a little later is a bit different. So yes, the easiest person to delude is yourself.
"Primarily" , because outside the definition and existence of truth as a purely perceived thing , truth can be an easy way out, a mechanism of self defense. You have problems, you need a scapegoat. Some charismatic leader or neighbour will give you a scapegoat. History abounds. Your sensory perception isn't determining truth in this case, it's the need for a truth that is causing you to accept a falsehood as a truth.
And truth as regards PM ? It's in the chess game. And for many it's in the self-defense mechanism. Because confronted with insurmountable difficulty, people need to believe, need certitudes.
Which leads to the proposition that the quest for perpetual motion can be akin to adhering to a religion. You can't see it, but you know it exists :)
It might even appear to you in dreams.
Truth can be benvolant or malevolant. But it's rarely true.
"Primarily" , because outside the definition and existence of truth as a purely perceived thing , truth can be an easy way out, a mechanism of self defense. You have problems, you need a scapegoat. Some charismatic leader or neighbour will give you a scapegoat. History abounds. Your sensory perception isn't determining truth in this case, it's the need for a truth that is causing you to accept a falsehood as a truth.
And truth as regards PM ? It's in the chess game. And for many it's in the self-defense mechanism. Because confronted with insurmountable difficulty, people need to believe, need certitudes.
Which leads to the proposition that the quest for perpetual motion can be akin to adhering to a religion. You can't see it, but you know it exists :)
It might even appear to you in dreams.
Truth can be benvolant or malevolant. But it's rarely true.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
re: The search for truth.
In the PM game truth need not be a casualty - there is a path to follow that limits exposure to self delusion.
Form an unqualified Theory [many have done this & by the number of theory's it would indicate that this is the easy bit].
Devise an Experiment to isolate & test the main hypothesis [this takes even greater painstaking thought].
Build, conduct, observe the experiment & gather empirical Data.
Compare data to predictions from the previously unqualified Theory to form a qualified opinion.
Publish the theory & the empirical data to support it.
Let others replicate your experiments & draw their own conclusions.
If your theory & experimental technique was entirely sound then there will be no wayward exceptions in the data to theory & the conclusions drawn should be able to be arrived at by all.
Your theory, having been tested over & over, without finding any major fault in logic or math will eventually become a Law [a universally accepted truth].
A new theory will replace yours when it proves to be a better, more accurate & predictive model - of course, if you have empirically proved your theory with a working POP then you get to sit at the head of the table.
Form an unqualified Theory [many have done this & by the number of theory's it would indicate that this is the easy bit].
Devise an Experiment to isolate & test the main hypothesis [this takes even greater painstaking thought].
Build, conduct, observe the experiment & gather empirical Data.
Compare data to predictions from the previously unqualified Theory to form a qualified opinion.
Publish the theory & the empirical data to support it.
Let others replicate your experiments & draw their own conclusions.
If your theory & experimental technique was entirely sound then there will be no wayward exceptions in the data to theory & the conclusions drawn should be able to be arrived at by all.
Your theory, having been tested over & over, without finding any major fault in logic or math will eventually become a Law [a universally accepted truth].
A new theory will replace yours when it proves to be a better, more accurate & predictive model - of course, if you have empirically proved your theory with a working POP then you get to sit at the head of the table.
re: The search for truth.
All to often I think perception and truth are confused or at least miscommunicated..If Truth or True is based on what is known and established and in agreement to facts stated and reality known then this may be an empirical truth.
Absolute..I heard once..is something science must by neccessity stay away from..for Absolute is that which exist independant of known fact and or reality; possibly like faith
Perception I think is confused with truth because it may be degraded from an absolute or from emotion and the overwhelming (percerption) becomes true to the individual but not true to fact or reality.
Absolute..I heard once..is something science must by neccessity stay away from..for Absolute is that which exist independant of known fact and or reality; possibly like faith
Perception I think is confused with truth because it may be degraded from an absolute or from emotion and the overwhelming (percerption) becomes true to the individual but not true to fact or reality.
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
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nicbordeaux
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Exactly Jim, that is what I told the wife when my surefire 48/1 nag didn't make the top three and we lost 2 euros. Statistically, from analysis of recurrent numbers in 18 horse races run on that particular track, objectively because I knew the jockey's cousin, that hawse 17 was sure to place. It didn't. They disqualified it.jim_mich wrote:Nic,
Truth is truth. What you describe is not truth. It is probability. Truth is 100% probability. Truth only relates to past and present events. This is because the future is never 100% sure.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
re: The search for truth.
Another example of truth vs. perception would be..for example; This Post
The Truth would be that the Last two Post were posted Mon. Apr. 19 2010
and that the Post before that was Posted Mon. Dec 28 2009. This is True or a Truth
Perception would be..Someone posted " The Search For The Truth" without adding to the post because they were looking for a responce from an individual ( or plural)
If then that emotion were strong enough It could degrade to a Truth by perception and have no basis in fact or reality
The Truth would be that the Last two Post were posted Mon. Apr. 19 2010
and that the Post before that was Posted Mon. Dec 28 2009. This is True or a Truth
Perception would be..Someone posted " The Search For The Truth" without adding to the post because they were looking for a responce from an individual ( or plural)
If then that emotion were strong enough It could degrade to a Truth by perception and have no basis in fact or reality
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
re: The search for truth.
And Finally...As to Absolute
Fletcher On Mon. Dec 28 2009 you perfectly mapped out the road we must follow..Theory..Experiment..Data..Qualified now I can not state unequivicably that this is "True" but I can certainly accept this as The Absolute: ))
Richard
Fletcher On Mon. Dec 28 2009 you perfectly mapped out the road we must follow..Theory..Experiment..Data..Qualified now I can not state unequivicably that this is "True" but I can certainly accept this as The Absolute: ))
Richard
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think