Bessler WAS mad....& your excuse???

[Gill Simo]

JC's book is undoubtedly full of vital information and akin to everyone else I can only admire and give thanks for his efforts but........
He wrote the book in an attempt to convince us all as to the validity of his argument and in order to achieve as good a presentation of that argument, then quite naturally he focused on whatever he viewed as supportive to that argument.
Bessler quite clearly went off the rails after his invention. Oh yeah, JC makes mention of this....for correctness sake, he includes letters that make mention of it.....because he has to.....but in general Bessler's madness is swept under the carpet as well as possible......because it does nothing to strengthen the argument and everything to detract from it.
You know, having followed this board for several years now I've seen the most laughable nonsense spouted re this clue, that clue.....even clues that are clearly no such thing, unless like the proposer you are so driven to desperation that you'll convince yourself of any old crap.
There appears not one amongst you with enough nonce to realise that Bessler's madness is by far and away the most revealing clue of the lot.
Now that's madness!
I've argued 'til blue in the face that anyone attempting to make a two dimensional `wheel` place excess weight anywhere other than directly under its axle is a fool....you'd be just as well attempting to hold your breath, convinced that you can do it, if you try hard enough, without expiring.....!!
I've argued that whatever the solution, it will/must be a revelation.
Build any wheel that eventually spins, based on your two dimensional twists and turns and although you'd certainly feel shocked and excited, proud even of your own smart arse'ness, you'd feel little else other than `where's my money`.
When this is finally solved, as it will be eventually, then the inventor will see something far more moving than their own clever trick over gravity. They will see something of nature, of this reality, hitherto not realised. They will see, for want of a better expression, something closer to God, to the `Truth`.......and it will humble them immensely.....and, unless they are an exceptionally grounded and balanced soul, they will start to act accordingly.
Bessler's madness is proof enough that he did it and that his devise employed something way, way beyond anything that we can currently imagine.
"Oh my, look at that oscillating, doopledoobba, pendulum thing go, wow, the workings of God beyond a doubt" ....?? NO....it's not going to happen.
When the wheel finally spins it will be "F**k, Gods work"....end of.
You will have found God and at one and the same time lost yourself.
Exactly as per Bessler.

[bluesgtr44]

I agree with your conclusion of his being mad....I think I might disagree with your reasoning as to why.

I think the solution was simple to apply once the source was known. There was a reason why he wanted a straight up cash pay out and there are reasons to believe he knew he wouldn't be able to capitalize on his discovery if it ever got out....it was just that simple to apply. Karl obviously knew this as he was the only other person to see inside the wheel and funny thing, he didn't go mad with that knowledge.

So, Gill...was the madness due to the discovery or the fear of discovery....before he recieved his proper due? Hey, good to hear from you again!


Steve

[jim_mich]

Some reading...

Are Genius and Madness Related? Contemporary Answers to an Ancient Question.

Ever since antiquity, thinkers have associated creativity with psychopathology--the classic idea of the "mad genius.

In Every Element of Genius, Is There an Element of Madness?

The hypothesis that genius and madness are related has been in existence for centuries. Aristotle once claimed that "there is no great genius without a mixture of madness"

The link between genius and madness

They say there's a fine line between genius and madness.

Painter Van Gogh and author Jack Kerouac were both hailed as geniuses but displayed self-destructive behaviour.

Now scientists have discovered a gene which is linked to both intelligence and one of the most common forms of madness - schizophrenia.

My father was a genius. He was an inventor. He was also schizophrenic.

One of my bothers is schizophrenic. In high school his IQ tested the highest of us five brothers.

One of my nephews is schizophrenic. He had one of the highest IQ's in his class.

I've worked very hard to keep myself sane. Now here I am indulging in this insane quest for perpetual motion.

[John Collins]

Here is a quote from my book, written by 'sGravesand's editor and publisher .

"1) Orffyreus was evidently mad, as Ms 'sGravesande and Ms. de Crousaz both affirm; his breaking his machinery at different times with neither reason nor necessity proves this. But his was a sort of madness we don't often see; a mania fixed only on certain objects, which merits the name of fantasy or whimsy - this kind of mania is often accompanied by much ingenuity, and when persons of this disposition apply themselves solely to one subject, as it appears he did, it is not surprising to find them making discoveries which have escaped the sagacity of wiser people."

Today we might call this obsessive-compulsive disorder, described thus:- "The phrase "obsessive–compulsive" has become part of the English lexicon, and is often used in an informal or caricatured manner to describe someone who is meticulous, perfectionistic, absorbed in a cause, or otherwise fixated on something or someone. That sounds to me like a perfect description of Bessler - and myself! So, Gill, not too far from the truth.

JC

[rlortie]

"obsessive–compulsive", Autism, erratic social behavior, are descriptions befitting many noted persons.

Albert Einstein being no exception, many autistic people have exceptional skills in given fields such as remembering dates, playing music without missing a note after only one hearing of a composition, etc...

An example was recently posted on YouTube where an autistic person was given a helicopter ride over the city of Rome. He then proceeded to pencil sketch a 5-1/2 foot long drawing of what he had seen. I will see if I can find the link and post it.

Bessler's noted social behavior clearly can lead one to believe that he did indeed fit into this category.

Ralph

[nicbordeaux]

Psychaitry pseudo science as a definition of madness is a sick joke, in fact psychiatry, short of PET scans, EEG's and individual practionners with a high level of empathy and intuition is a sick joke. Those guys know less about the human psyche than we about getting a PM wheel to work. In fact, they now nothing but the obvious, and rely heavily on the mad amblings of an Austrian nutcase (why do all these nutcases keep coming out of Austria, why, you might conclude that by the number of loonies they produce, the Austrians must be a nation of inbred madmen, a closed genepool of megalomaniac lunatics). Don't please get the idea that I'm being offensive about Austrians, I once on a school exchange/language trip got to know nearly 20 frauleins in 21 days.

So, abnormal behavior and creativity ? yes, definitely a link, no need for psychiatry for that. Unless you consider that cutting your ear off is normal.

[DrWhat]

Gill,

if during Bessler's time I announced I had found a way to make a box (which I can sit in) that moves fast across the ground and is powered by the sun, most would have said I was mad, and that if I could achieve this I would have revealed the inner workings of God etc etc.

Well you can speed from Adelaide to Darwin in a solar powered car!

So lets just be realistic about what that discovery will reveal about God. Sure something amazing will be discovered, but lets keep it in context!

[Michael]

I actually disagree with all of you.
1. Madness takes you off course.
2. Genius is clear thinking multiplied against the power of doing.
And if you have a diagnosed chemical disorder it doesn't make you a genius. Go back to 1.
Stress, can sometimes make a person behave and look as if they are mad. A lot of obsessive compulsive disorders come from a hidden stress. A superstitious mind set can arise when a person thinks, if I do this and this and this so many times then everything will be okay.

[justsomeone]

I think he was an extremely bright man with a wicked bad temper.

[MrTim]

And somewhat paranoid to boot.... ;)

[nicbordeaux]

from Michael

I actually disagree with all of you.
1. Madness takes you off course.
2. Genuis is clear thinking multiplied against the power of doing.
And if you have a diagnosed chemical disorder it doesn't make you a genius. Go back to 1.
Stress, can sometimes make a person behave and look as if they are mad. A lot of obessive compulsive disorders come from a hidden stress.

You can't disagree with everybody Michael (unless you want to feel that you do ?) because you don't know what we intended and were able to convey thereof in the confines of words and keyboard abilities detracting from clear thought, or expression thereof.

1. Madness needs to be defined, but seems to be monomania in this thread, arises in absence generally of a set of religious beliefs and guidelines, doesn't take you offcourse, it just steers you along a single path: blinker syndrome. The more intellectually challenged get obsessed with trivia, the brighter ones channel all their knowledge, experience and brain power into their quest. Monomania is a form of self preservation.

2. Genius status is what you describe inasmuch that a result is achieved and published, recognized. Failing to reach the goal doesn't imply lack of genius. Furthermore, you can be a lazy genius. I for one claim to be an armchair Genius.

Stating "if you have a chemical disorder as opposed to or in lieu of the expected (in context) mental disorder means that you agree with me, or vice versa. Even that fraud Freud in a final moment of honesty stated that one day, a metabolic cause would be discovered to be the root of all mental disorders.

Stress is a "trigger" to many disorders; to believe today's quacks, or the immense majority of them, even thrombosis is caused by stress. Stress has always existed. Can you imagine climbing down (or being shoved) from the tree ? Did the humanoïds all suffer from suicidal tendancies confronted with living on the ground ? And actually, in times of war or other great duress and uncertainty, there is less clinical depression because of the need to focus on the imediate survival mode. So it is lack of aim/purpose which seems to cause mental disorder, and with that I've written mysef into a corner, because if monomania is a mental disorder which leads to genius, all monomaniacs are potential genius', there is no call for genius outside mental disorder (serves no purpose), lack of religion or blind belief causes genius.

As to excentricity, it is generally present in genius' without monomania.And must therefore be a decompensation mode of genius. Or madness.

I feel the onset of a schizoïd spasm... Anybody have some certitudes for sale ?

http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/player ... CejXnHAS/c

[DrWhat]

Wow, now that video is amazing and insane at the same time!

[docfeelsgood]

in some peoples case , "the apples dont fall far from the tree" !!

[Gill Simo]

Ok, thanks for some response.

Bluesgtr44.......The guy that looked inside was not the discoverer. I wasn't suggesting that all who see it see God/go loopy. God indeed help us if we all get to see it one day. if that were the case! No, the discoverer is in an extremely unique position and it's this unique position that drives the madness, that must inevitably lead to thoughts of being chosen, revelation etc. The discoverer is alone, one, the only one in a sea of humanity.

Re discovery/fear of....look, the guy felt that he'd met his God in some way. Browse back through the archives.....how many times is a patent office mentioned? It's awash with it! You suspect money as a prime mover and you can only suspect that if money is your prime mover. You may well tell me right now, that you'd of course go for the money rather than pass it over in deference to some God shyte.......but you damn well wouldn't be saying that if you felt that you'd met your God.....you'd feel insulted at the very suggestion
You know.....it's just wrong, it's the wrong mind set for exploring God's work.....and in God I mean Nature. Nature will reveal itself when nature deems it correct and anyone thinking money just ain't the right stuff somehow......and how exactly any one of you are ever going to patent a law of Nature??? Bessler knew damn well that he couldn't patent it, nothing to do with too simple.....too simple does not refuse someone a patent. Bessler wanted a one off, up front payment for exactly the reason he gave....a Fortress of/to God.....beyond that he would have felt it his humble duty to hand it over to all.... for not one single, further penny.

DrWhat......yes indeed, the `most` would have proclaimed God but you have yourself taken it entirely out of context I think. You. the discoverer, would have been proclaiming "No, really. it's quite simple" would you not? That's the reverse.....here Bessler is proclaiming God and the `most` are proclaiming "NO, you're really quite simple are you not"

I take fully on board the connection between genius and madness but as Michael points out, it's not written in stone.........and certainly not worthy of you's going off at a tangent here about the pro's and con's of madness.

Please correct me but without referring back to JC's book I thought Bessler was a kinda sorted, well respected, intelligent, interesting, resourceful, useful part of his community... pre discovery.....yeah, sorted, no mention of him attempting to open the Seventh Seal behind the church organ is there?

[Michael]

Nick using Van Gogh as the example. It can be said that he possessed a certain quality of genius which showed up in his art. It is also commonly believed, by the study of his behavior as noted by himself and his contemporaries, that he suffered from a form of madness. The word madness being used in a generalized sense to denote anti social behavior and/or dis-functionality. It is known if you study art history that Van Gogh did his best work when he was at his most sane, and he did his worst when he was the most unstable. And when he was at his most unstable he also destroyed relationships. Nick, it doesn't take a genius to understand that if you place a glass of water on a rickety and warped table that there is a good chance it will tip. Where as placing it on a well made and stable table it will sit just fine. It's not different with personality, or really much anything else. My disagreement is with the belief, which I hold to be a wives tale, is that genius needs insanity. There are plenty of people who it can be said possess genius who are not "mad". And there are some people who at times fit the term of "mad" who can at other times possess genius. Using a simile as the example, genius like a drowning swimmer can surface up through the ocean of madness at times. But the two are distinct from each other. Which brings me to the next point which you also have brought up, which I agree with. Eccentricity. I do believe that a notable characteristic of people who possess genius is one where at times they appear to be eccentric. But what is eccentricity? It's being different from the norm. And what's the norm? It's the widely accepted agreement of what is socially right way to act and be. In other words it’s a label that comes from a group of people who see the difference from their agreement. But it’s not madness. And it could very well be that the group of people who are in the “norm�, in various examples, are the ones suffering from a form of madness, because they might be socially brainwashed and accept the program without question.
As for monomania, if someone is focusing on one objective then they might be able to get quicker results, but if one is obsessing on the same futile path, then as Einstein said, madness is knowing what's right but chosing to make the same mistakes over and over again.
Nick, please tell us why you consider yourself an armchair genius and what requirements are filled to meet that label. We might then be able to tell if you are, or if your " mad", or somewhere in between.